Question On Oxygenating The Primary Before Pitching

[Squaregrouper]

I've a lurker for a while and have a question about oxygenating the primary. I'll provide a quick background first, so I don't sound like a whack job...
I have a very strong background in aquatic filtration- I have 8 years experience as an engineer in a major public aquarium. That being explained, here is my question:
It is recommended to oxygenate the filtered water which the wort will be added to prior to pitching the yeast.

Would it be feasible to add Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) to the primary's water to increase oxygen rather than risking contamination by pumping in ambient air? This method is commonly used in public aquariums, zoos and aquaculture facilities as an emergency way to oxygenate water during a power failure. If it is safe enough to raise DO levels without harming gills, I can't see how it would be detrimental to water prior to the wort being mixed.

It is important for me to explain that the compound Hydrogen Peroxide is water (H2O) with an extra oxygen (O) atom added. As soon as the compound (H202) is added to the water, the peroxide reverts to water and the extra (O) combines with other free oxygen atoms to become free oxygen (O2).

Thoughts???

 

[day_trippr]

If you can figure out the moles of O2 yielded by a unit of peroxide and work the math so you know how big a dose to use, I suppose it should work. Presumably the oxidatiing energy would be too small to do too much damage to the yeast.

btw, I don't quite get this: "It is recommended to oxygenate the filtered water which the wort will be added to prior to pitching the yeast." Makes it sound like a two part process, when it really isn't - or shouldn't be...

Cheers!

 

[Squaregrouper]

Using the correct volume of a given percentage solution of H202 would be key, as if too much were added there would be a residual oxidant left in the water. When adding it correctly, there would be no oxidizing effects because the peroxide would be released as water and free oxygen.
I state adding the peroxide to the water in the brew bucket before the yeast is added so there will be no oxidizing potential above that of water at or near oxygen saturation. If the wort and yeast are combined, there is a potential for the peroxide to oxidize the yeast.
I feel this would work best when a concentrated wort is added to oxygenated (with H202) water in the primary.

 

[RM-MN]

Just how filthy is your air that you cannot just aerate your wort like the rest of us do? Most of us simply shake the fermenter, pour back and forth, use aquarium pumps, or oxygen bottles. We don't worry overmuch about what is in our air because we add such a large quantity of yeast cells that they overwhelm the small amount of bacteria in the air and then they produce alcohol to kill off any that survive.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]I state adding the peroxide to the water in the brew bucket before the yeast is added so there will be no oxidizing potential above that of water at or near oxygen saturation. If the wort and yeast are combined, there is a potential for the peroxide to oxidize the yeast.
I feel this would work best when a concentrated wort is added to oxygenated (with H202) water in the primary.

Oxygenating the wort prior to pitching the yeast makes sense to avoid potential yeast damage, but that's not the same as "oxygenate the filtered water which the wort will be added". Although now that I mention that, I suppose you could do a partial boil, oxygenate the post-boil top-up water with your peroxide to a level that would account for the full batch size, combine them and then pitch the yeast.

Either way would avoid whacking the yeast...

Cheers!

 

[h4mmy86]

fascinating

 

[day_trippr]

^ As a quasi-academic exercise, perhaps. But frankly it's so easy to accomplish the same ends using rather "safe and sane" measures (re: O2 injection) that imo it's best left that way...

Cheers!

 

[Squaregrouper]

I guess I was being overly paranoid about bacterial contamination coming from ambient air being pumped in with an airstone. All of the literature and comments about bacterial and wild yeast contamination had me concerned that I would need to worry about this.
Am I correct in saying that a large aquarium air pump and a homebrew airstone would be the easy way to go?

 

[chiteface]

I guess I was being overly paranoid about bacterial contamination coming from ambient air being pumped in with an airstone. All of the literature and comments about bacterial and wild yeast contamination had me concerned that I would need to worry about this.
Am I correct in saying that a large aquarium air pump and a homebrew airstone would be the easy way to go?

I don't know, I'm kind of digging the idea of h2o2. It would probably be cheaper than buying a O2 system and the O2 tanks...

 

[IslandLizard]

Aren't you worried about the sanitation level of the H2O2? And what else is in there?

What concentration of H2O2 can you get your hands on?

Most consumer level peroxide is around is 3%, which means you'd be adding 97% water, and hopefully nothing else, effectively diluting your wort.

 

[IslandLizard]

I guess I was being overly paranoid about bacterial contamination coming from ambient air being pumped in with an airstone. All of the literature and comments about bacterial and wild yeast contamination had me concerned that I would need to worry about this.
Am I correct in saying that a large aquarium air pump and a homebrew airstone would be the easy way to go?

That's why we use an inline hepa filter.

Those SS air "stones" are easy to sanitize by boiling for 10 minutes. You can even autoclave them.

 

[chiteface]

Aren't you worried about the sanitation level of the H2O2? And what else is in there?

When you say sanitation, what are you concerned about? Isn't it a sanitary medical substance? People use it for mouth wash...

 

[Mdking2]

The concern I would have with the addition of H2O2 is that it is a radical reagent. This means that it reacts with almost anything that it comes in contact with as it breaks apart. I would be concerned about possible side effects to the wort if added.

 

[IslandLizard]

The concern I would have with the addition of H2O2 is that it is a radical reagent. This means that it reacts with almost anything that it comes in contact with as it breaks apart. I would be concerned about possible side effects to the wort if added.

Good point! I didn't even think of that. The 'O' radical itself may give H2O2 it's antiseptic properties, not the O2.

 

[day_trippr]

I guess I was being overly paranoid about bacterial contamination coming from ambient air being pumped in with an airstone. All of the literature and comments about bacterial and wild yeast contamination had me concerned that I would need to worry about this.
Am I correct in saying that a large aquarium air pump and a homebrew airstone would be the easy way to go?

If you add an air filter between an aquarium air pump and a sintered stainless steel airstone you won't need to worry about pumping critters into your wort. (Image borrowed from Palmer's site)

Alternatively, you can obtain a relatively inexpensive O2 rig, which uses disposable O2 cylinders and doesn't need a filter...

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

Good point! I didn't even think of that. The 'O' radical itself may give H2O2 it's antiseptic properties, not the O2.

Again, if you were bound and determined, you could add the peroxide to the make-up water for a partial-boil batch. For that matter, given the point made earlier about the strength of peroxide available to consumers, you could actually "make up" the make-up water with as much peroxide as needed to get the job done.

Still, I'd go with O2, just for ease of use and degree of control. And I do...

Cheers!

 

[MikeInMKE]

Already tried:

http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/03/oxygenation-with-hydrogen-peroxide.html

 

[Squaregrouper]

Already tried:

http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/03/oxygenation-with-hydrogen-peroxide.html

This is good information, but not exactly what I'm talking about doing.
I was thinking of using water impregnated with peroxide as my top off water or "primary starter water" which the concentrated wort is added to. Example- If my batch is 5 gallons and my wort evaporated down to 4 gallons, the missing gallon needs to be replaced. Rather than slowly adding water to the boiling wort, I'm proposing to add peroxide to the water in the primary (before pitching) at, near or slighlly above saturation. Provided the water wasn't significantly above 100% oxygen saturation, there would be no recognizable oxidizing effects on the yeast. I need to point out that any residual oxidants (TRO's) would have already oxidized a minute amount of the wort; as oxidants do not discriminate on the organics which they will oxidize.

 

[Squaregrouper]

Good point! I didn't even think of that. The 'O' radical itself may give H2O2 it's antiseptic properties, not the O2.

This is 100% correct. The "O" radical doesn't want to be associated with water (H2O). This makes peroxide an effective oxidizer- the extra "O" is looking for something else to latch to, thus oxidizing it. However, when added to straight water, the peroxide will revert to water and O2- remember oxygen cannot exist as "O". It must be with another atom (including another "O") thus "O2" vs. "O" in nature.
Island Lizard- I saw where you're from. I have done a lot of work with water filtration and manipulating Baltimore's tap water at a large venue at the inner harbor. That is where the whole peroxide idea came from.

 

[day_trippr]

The linked article states 3% peroxide solution is equivalent to 7000ppm. So you mix up enough to make your one gallon of top-up water at around 50 ppm and you'll end up with a five gallon batch of 10 ppm...

Cheers!

 

[EVBrewing]

I know this is an old thread, but i wanted to throw something in there in case anybody else reads this. I use H2O2 as an equipment sanitizer and it works very well. I do recommend using food grade H2O2 for any brewing aplications, because the common 3% you find in the grocery store has other additives in it. I get 35% H2O2 at a local hydroponics shop and dilute it down. You must also be very careful when handling it at 35% concentration because it will burn your skin. You want to wear gloves and wash the out side of the containers off before handling with bare skin. Iv also thought about using it to oxygenate prior to pitching yeast but have not tried it. It seems it would work well with plain water but i was afraid of the effects it might have if added directly to wort.

 

[Squaregrouper]

I wouldn't add it directly to the wort because it would oxidize some of the wort- surely causing off tastes. I would dilute a 35% solution to ~1-5 with water before adding it to the wort.
I will personally claim expertise in that it WILL increase the dissolved oxygen. However, I'm not sure whether the amount of oxidation to the wort will be detrimental.

 

[E_Marquez]

I guess I was being overly paranoid about bacterial contamination coming from ambient air being pumped in with an airstone.

Use a HEPA filter, it adds a layer of additional protection many agree is not needed.. so some claim it's overkill.. But hey, what do I know...
The O2 in my welding bottles never hurts my regulators (and it would if it was contaminated with oils or solids) so Im pretty sure it's clean enough for my wort.. But I use a small cheap HEPA filter anyway. http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=2289

$5.50

EDIT: Argg, just got caught up in posting to a revived old thread....