Question of Ethics during the Hop "Crisis"

[Evan!]

I don't take any offense to anyone speaking their mind. Thats why my thread is called "QUESTION of ethics..." and not "THIS GUY HAS NO ETHICS". IMO, there is a big difference between those statements. Also, why do you think I put Crisis in quotes?

Regardless of whether you put "question" in your title, the glaringly obvious fact of the matter is, you said "he is definitely price gouging."

The bottom line is that you can still state your opinion without trying to teach someone something they might already know. I'm not saying anyone is on a high horse, however I can see how some might take it that way. I have taken many courses on ethics, logic, philosophy as well as business classes. However, when I have an opinion on a given topic, I don't feel the need to lend footnotes for each statement I make and create a thesis from an opinion.

The bottom line is that I felt that your accusation of "price gouging" displayed your lack of understanding of the concept of price gouging, which is why I felt the need to interject with some basic economic principles. I genuinely thought/think that you didn't know, otherwise you wouldn't have said "he is definitely price gouging." I wasn't trying to teach you something you didn't already know. Not only that, but if you don't like what I'm posting, feel free to skip right on over it. It's up to you, I won't take offense. Honest.

The bottom line is that this guy is limiting the amount of hops he sells in store to create revenue online. Yes, he can do that. Yes, they are infact his hops and his to sell as he likes. I don't agree with his business practices, and in the end he is just hurting himself.

Perhaps, but do you still think that he is "price gouging"?

 

[Evan!]

First and foremost, i think the "capitalism" camp has been disrespectful to a degree. The OP was looking for some agreement/sympathy/listening ear from a community that should feel outraged about that. To then BASICALLY (not literally) call him and those in his school of thought idiots because "hey, its basic economics, tough" is ignorant.

I didn't call anyone an idiot, basically or otherwise. I just said that his claim of price gouging belied a lack of understanding of economics. I never said anything about idiocy.

And again, if he was just looking for people to commiserate with, to pat him on the back and say "damn, dude, that sucks, that guy's a bastard", then he should have just come out and said so, rather than questioning his ethics, accusing him of price gouging, then asking for our opinions.

 

[Beerrific]

Do you know why he is doing this? Not to sound like a jerk or something, but have you ask him about it? It doesn't make much sense to not sell the same product in the store for the same price unless there are other circumstances that makes it complicated.

I can think of a couple reasons why he might have this policy and I wouldn't think that a store that has been in business for a number of years would prevent itself from making a possible sale.

 

[Bobby_M]

I totally agree Evan. The way the OP phrased the question and the entire post was begging for a good old debate. Using words like ethics and morals just about force a debate. If this forum enacted a rule that said something like "Please only post a reply to a thread if you have sympathy or otherwise agree with the poster you are replying to", I'd be off to the greenboard in two seconds flat.

I'm a firm believer that if you make any statement in public, you should think about it enough beforehand that you can defend it afterward. Some ideas hold up, some don't, but we're all adults here.

If Noclue would have said, "this situation sucks, I wish I could buy as much hops as I want",

I'd say..."yeah, I know right?". I agree this hop shortage and resultant price hike blows goats.

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

Evan- Perhaps price gouging was not the correct term. You obviously have that quote button down.

I have not asked him why he is limiting sales in store and allowing bulk sales online. With the amount of restriction that stores in my area (Boston, MA) are putting on hop sales, he could make a good bit of business if he allowed people to buy in bulk in store. This would also pull people into his store to increase sales.

Baiting the consumers with a sales policy that others don't offer IS smart business. Making people buy online (not even his stores website, but on ebay) where all of his products aren't available for sale is not.

Call it what you like, this guy is still a ******.

 

[Bobby_M]

And as far as the high horse comment: i've already touched on that, you start lecturing basic economics like you are so great? the one poster said "i'll slap you with facts if you disrespect my opinion" hey, what do you think you are doing, but disrespecting the OP and my opinions!

When someone's statements cause you to believe they lack the basics of the topic in question, you can either walk away or provide the "lecture". Which one promotes more learning?

If you're going to quote me literally using quotation marks, at least copy and paste the actual statement instead of paraphrasing it and getting it wrong.

Sorry if offended anyone.

 

[Bobby_M]

Baiting the consumers with a sales policy that others don't offer IS smart business. Making people buy online (not even his stores website, but on ebay) where all of his products aren't available for sale is not.

Call it what you like, this guy is still a ******.

I wonder if the owner of the store is the same guy. There's a posibility that the owner enacted this policy in house and the guy selling on Ebay is an employee who's pulling some kind of scam. I don't know, just speculating.

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

Sorry if offended anyone.

You have offended me Bobby: you have far more time to build your toys than I do!

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

Newp... its the same guy... I have spoken to him on the phone before, and his response on ebay was signed by the same name.

 

[OblivionsGate]

I apologize for my part in the economic practices debate, it is a bit OT, but when discussion happens....

So Oblivion and anyone else, I am not looking to pick a fight or offend, I say what I think, sometimes even in a point by point refutation.... But at the end of the post/thread/discussion, I would stand up, shake your hand, and offer to buy the next round

RDWHAHB applies to more than just, "will my beer be ok?"

Thank you for the clarification, I'm not looking to pick a fight either, but its hard to get the meaning conveyed by tone and facial expression in person when we just type flat words on the net!

That being said, i'd rather ease the tension and slow the conversation than continue the rants, so all i will say is that I do agree with the economic points, i just personally feel that shady economic practices like what is going on with the OP are more out of place in a small business servicing those with similar interests, than the actions of an oil company for example. We feel differently about that, not the end of the world.

 

[OblivionsGate]

If you're going to quote me literally using quotation marks, at least copy and paste the actual statement instead of paraphrasing it and getting it wrong.

Sorry if offended anyone.

I'm sorry if I misquoted you, there are several people discussing this very, very hot thread and i couldn't pull the quotes i wanted to address from multiple posts on multiple pages.

Again, its the typing over the internet as opposed to talking in person, i meant those to be air-quote-esq, not a direct quote. Sorry once again.

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

I'd email you all a round, but I think my computer wouldn't like it and I can't figure out where the beer goes...

 

[Evan!]

I'd email you all a round, but I think my computer wouldn't like it and I can't figure out where the beer goes...

word. anyway...

thanks for a lively debate, and I hope nobody took offense to what I said. I really didn't mean any disrespect, I just don't usually dress up what I have to say.

I guess, at the end of the day, the market will ferret out and destroy any business practices that the consumer won't accept. I personally can see the merits of both sides of the debate with regards to whether it's a smart or a dumb business practice, but I really don't think that it matters whether he's a ****** or not. Either his plan will work or it won't...and if it doesn't, then you win.

 

[FlyingHorse]

Making people buy online (not even his stores website, but on ebay) where all of his products aren't available for sale is not.

As I said earlier, it appears you can order as much as you want on his website, and choose "store pickup" as your shipping option. Unless there's something that kicks in after the payment page (I didn't go that far with my "test" order of 10 lbs of hops ), there's no restriction.

If you walk into his store with a confirmed online order for 10 lbs of hops, and he refuses to fill it, then you have an ethics issue.

 

[OblivionsGate]

word. anyway...

thanks for a lively debate, and I hope nobody took offense to what I said. I really didn't mean any disrespect, I just don't usually dress up what I have to say.

I guess, at the end of the day, the market will ferret out and destroy any business practices that the consumer won't accept. I personally can see the merits of both sides of the debate with regards to whether it's a smart or a dumb business practice, but I really don't think that it matters whether he's a ****** or not. Either his plan will work or it won't...and if it doesn't, then you win.

well said, my feelings exactly.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

I'd email you all a round, but I think my computer wouldn't like it and I can't figure out where the beer goes...

Last time I tried I broke my DVD burnner....

 

[blacklab]

I'd email you all a round, but I think my computer wouldn't like it and I can't figure out where the beer goes...

What exactly would you email us with?

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

Well, I guess this debate is dead....

On to global warming!!!!! Oh wait, its closed...

So about my beer.....

 

[brett]

...[NoClueBrewMaster] explicitly accused this business of gouging. You said, "he is definitely price gouging." That's quite an accusation, and one that I felt needed to be corrected....I had a problem with your claim that you've taken classes on economics and understand them, since I found your definition of price gouging to be way off the mark.

The term "Price Gouging" can be used colloquially to simply describe the act of setting a price that one feels is too high. That's how I used the phrase in my reply.

Sometimes, the prudent thing to do is to request further clarification before accusing an individual of ignorance or insulting his/her education.

 

[stever]

Why not just buy from him on Ebay and ask for a local pickup?

We have a winner.

Did you try this route yet? Even if you don't want to buy from him out of spite it would be nice to see if he would allow for a pickup. My guess is no because a lot of ebay sellers pad the shipping for extra profit.

 

[Donasay]

word. anyway...

I guess, at the end of the day, the market will ferret out and destroy any business practices that the consumer won't accept. I personally can see the merits of both sides of the debate with regards to whether it's a smart or a dumb business practice, but I really don't think that it matters whether he's a ****** or not. Either his plan will work or it won't...and if it doesn't, then you win.

Isn't part of the market forces though letting other consumers know when a store is being "****** like". I have no problem saying that Strange Brew in Marlboro MA (The store everyone is talking about) is a pretty awful homebrew store. I have only been once, it is about an hour from Boston, but I am never going back.

In fact I have probably been to almost every homebrew store in the state of Massachusetts, and not a single one of them is great. The ones that have good selection charge an arm and a leg, and the ones that are inexpensive have stale ingredients or don't have certain specialty items you need.

 

[EdWort]

Isn't part of the market forces though letting other consumers know when a store is being "****** like".

Actually, that is a very good point. Many business owners have no idea how customers are being treated or how business is being conducted because they are insulated by a couple layers of employees.

A tactful letter first pointing out what loyal customer you have been, followed by a factual description of the problem, followed by a reasonable description of your disappointment, followed by a request to fix it if they want to continue to enjoy your business and loyalty will more often than not result in getting things done to your satisfaction.

A letter stating that their business is full of DB's and that you won't buy there again will the tossed.

Make it professional, to the point, and them them a chance to keep your business.

If that does not work, then send them the DB letter for principle sake.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

I still like my idea of paying bored college students to protest. lol But uhm.. post youtube vids please.

 

[BierMuncher]

Hi Everybody…

I have a keg I got from a local liquor store for a party I threw last year…I paid the deposit and everything…and…well…they haven’t called me about the keg…and uh…

Do you think it’s okay if I get a sawzall and a drill and try to um......uhhhh....? ? ? ?

...wait a minute...

Sorry, wrong thread…

 

[EdWort]

I still like my idea of paying bored college students to protest. lol But uhm.. post youtube vids please.

I knew you had a little anarchist in you. :cross:

 

[Docapi]

Here's what you need to do.

Go to the store and try to buy what you want. Tell them you want to pay the e-bay prices in cash.

If they refuse, pull out your blackberry or other portable internet device, go to his auction, and buy it that way. Make sure to pay online with a credit card and select in store pickup.

Then, look back to the guy and say you'd like to pick up your e-bay merchandise.

After you get the stuff, point out to him that between e-bay fees and credit card charges, he LOST money on the sale- just because he wanted to be a weenie.

 

[uglygoat]

Hi Everybody…

I have a keg I got from a local liquor store for a party I threw last year…I paid the deposit and everything…and…well…they haven’t called me about the keg…and uh…

Do you think it’s okay if I get a sawzall and a drill and try to um......uhhhh....? ? ? ?

...wait a minute...

Sorry, wrong thread…

the same ethical situation as being completely honest on your tax return and expecting others to be.... that and trusting altruism in others and gob'ment/big business...

 

[vav]

Free market economy. Dont buy from him, tell other people not to buy from him, problem solved.

 

[AGBrewer]

What a ******-bag, time for a cock punch me thinks

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Here's what you need to do.

Go to the store and try to buy what you want. Tell them you want to pay the e-bay prices in cash.

If they refuse, pull out your blackberry or other portable internet device, go to his auction, and buy it that way. Make sure to pay online with a credit card and select in store pickup.

Then, look back to the guy and say you'd like to pick up your e-bay merchandise.

After you get the stuff, point out to him that between e-bay fees and credit card charges, he LOST money on the sale- just because he wanted to be a weenie.

Right on!!! That's pretty much what I was going to suggest. I didn't think about the in-store use of the blackberry though! That's a real nice touch.....

 

[fratermus]

The funny thing is, when you go to this guys store, he won't sell you hops without buying a recipe kit.

My only interest in the thread is this bit.

My most recent experience at the LHBS was a gauntlet over 2 oz of pelletized hops. I only wanted 2oz, had a basket full of LME and specialty malts and other stuff, and had to run the "what are you going to do with the hops?" gauntlet. It went on and on. I finally said "if you won't sell me the 2oz of Galena I will substitute with another variety in my fridge I am using for another batch." It just wasn't worth the struggle anymore. He finally allowed me to buy the hops and then went on and on about how careful he's gotta be. Either sell or don't sell. I don't care. Just don't make me fight for it.

 

[EdWort]

My only interest in the thread is this bit.

"what are you going to do with the hops?"

I would have said, I'm going to have them with breakfast, then I would have stuck this on his head.

 

[Evan!]

I think they're concerned about people reselling them, which IMHO makes little sense. It's not like he's worried about you smoking them or, as Ed said, having them for breakfast, they just don't want you selling them. Why? Ostensibly it's to avoid "too much" competition in the market or something like that...like why ticketmaster doesn't like you to resell their tickets, etc. It's stupid, but some people are just effin paranoid and they think that you're gonna buy out their hops then sell them for half the price across the street---something that makes NO sense considering you'd be losing money on the deal. But whatever. People are fuggin idiots.

 

[TexLaw]

Good gravy on a chicken-fried steak! Is this thing still going on?

And, Ed, I think I will put some hops in my oatmeal tomorrow morning.


TL

 

[Evan!]

Good gravy on a chicken-fried steak! Is this thing still going on?

And, Ed, I think I will put some hops in my oatmeal tomorrow morning.


TL

Ah, we moved on from our debate, talking about someone else now.

 

[bethlehembrewer]

I just checked my LHBS website. They have a limit of 1lb per customer per day. And new customers can get up to $10 free shipping.

Now all I have to do is go into the store and find out if its the same policy.

 

[eddie]

Only a pound? Whatever will I do? That's just sixteen ounces of hops....hardly worth it.

 

[Arneba28]

Only a pound? I get hassled when I wanted 4 ounces for an IIPA, even after I told the guy that it was an IIPA