Question of Ethics during the Hop "Crisis"

[Bobby_M]

High horse? No. You can be my best friend but I'll slap you with facts if you're speaking ignorantly about something I have an opinion on. I don't mean ignorant in its commonly perceived negative implication. People hardly ever know that they don't know something. I'm talking about providing some clarity when emotion makes you say silly things ;-)

I don't think Evan or anyone else in the "this is capitalism" camp has been disrespectful at all.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

I don't think Evan or anyone else in the "this is capitalism" camp has been disrespectful at all.

I might have been, but I don't know how not to be

 

[brewt00l]

My thought that is if he is posting false information on the produt to try and sell it, they may have something to say about it.

But that has no impact on the accuracy of the listing or the auction transaction covered by the buyer/seller TOS. I don't think ebay would get involved in failure to deliver on a transaction outside of ebay just because it was discussed in the listing of a similar product by the same seller.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

But that has no impact on the accuracy of the listing or the auction transaction covered by the buyer/seller TOS. I don't think ebay would get involved in failure to deliver on a transaction outside of ebay just because it was discussed in the listing of a similar product by the same seller.

Eh, its worth a shot. trying the BBB would probably be just as useful, but it might make you feel like you personally accomplished something/

 

[Bobby_M]

I might have been, but I don't know how not to be

Well you're right there but there are a certain number of people who take disagreement as a personal attack. I might just be a little biased because I'm going to be selling a pound or two of hops in the near future and might even charge a different price depending on who I sell to. Call the cops.

Seriously, I'm just kidding around.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Didn't read the whole thread, so not sure if this is completely off-topic, but i didn't feel like making a new one

i went to San Francisco Brewcraft for the second time last weekend and bought enough ingredients for 2-3 beers. Then they limited my hops so i can't even make the 2 beers i was going to do.

I can get the hops from other sources. That's still bull****.

They are free to do as they'd like, but I won't be shopping there again.

Evan: This (above) is the tactics I'm complaining about.

And yes, you are right...and we choose to buy EVERYTHING elsewhere where we can get all the supplies we need.

I can understand going to a HBS and buying a kit or supplies enough for 2 batches and the guy selling you only enough for the recipe, but not selling you enough hops to make the batches for the supplies you purchased is just not right...but he'll sell bulk hops on-line? There's just something fundamentally wrong with both transactions because of an alleged shortage.

Personally, I'm not affected by the shortage. I had pounds of hops in my freezer for months before the first announcements of a possible shortage.

Plus, I know there are people here who are willing to trade, which has already happened a little while ago.

I also have 5-8 hop plants that will be 3 years old this year. :rockin:

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

Well if we were all as prepared as you, there would be no shortage would there?


I got to admit I stocked up as well (despite all the warnings not to) although I wish I had stocked up earlier than I did. I am just hoping I can grab enough of the 2008 crop this summer/fall to hold me another year.

Oh yeah, to stay on topic.... Capitilism... that is all.

 

[bethlehembrewer]

Is it really false info? Did the owner ever think that the person who comes into the store would be going on ebay as well, then put 2 & 2 together to figure out what the store was doing? People sell things on ebay to people who live thousands of miles away and would not have known otherwise. The accuracy and fairness of the ebay transaction is relative to ebay and nothing else.

However, now he has said he will not limit the amount he will sell in the store, using ebay as a means of communication. Again the prices he puts on the ebay listing are not relevant. What he said regarding the store's policies and prices while using ebay to communicate is relevant.

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

I don't take any offense to anyone speaking their mind. Thats why my thread is called "QUESTION of ethics..." and not "THIS GUY HAS NO ETHICS". IMO, there is a big difference between those statements. Also, why do you think I put Crisis in quotes?

The bottom line is that you can still state your opinion without trying to teach someone something they might already know. I'm not saying anyone is on a high horse, however I can see how some might take it that way. I have taken many courses on ethics, logic, philosophy as well as business classes. However, when I have an opinion on a given topic, I don't feel the need to lend footnotes for each statement I make and create a thesis from an opinion.

The bottom line is that this guy is limiting the amount of hops he sells in store to create revenue online. Yes, he can do that. Yes, they are infact his hops and his to sell as he likes. I don't agree with his business practices, and in the end he is just hurting himself.

 

[OblivionsGate]

First and foremost, i think the "capitalism" camp has been disrespectful to a degree. The OP was looking for some agreement/sympathy/listening ear from a community that should feel outraged about that. To then BASICALLY (not literally) call him and those in his school of thought idiots because "hey, its basic economics, tough" is ignorant.

As far as the tight knit community comment: how many people in america buy gas vs. how many people homebrew? how about the fact that of all the people on this site that go to lhbs, its mostly this one guy who is dealing with this problem? you want to mock me by saying "do i really think the 'community' wouldn't act like a business," thats just bull. My lhbs doesn't act like that and unless you are so rich that you can scoff at the idea of being forced to buy products you don't need to get the product you do, then i'm sure that would bother you too, regardless of "capitalism."

And as far as the high horse comment: i've already touched on that, you start lecturing basic economics like you are so great? the one poster said "i'll slap you with facts if you disrespect my opinion" hey, what do you think you are doing, but disrespecting the OP and my opinions! deathweed gets no comment, you admitted you responded in an ignorant way, and for evan, people are making jokes that for once they agree with you, that is how MUCH you disagree with people on the forums. so yes, for lack of a better phrase, get down off your high horses.

and in case you missed this point in my first post, lets bold it: i agree with you it is a valid economic practice, but it is morally ignorant to do that to someone who just wants to buy their product and go. Someone said this isnt the subject for emotion, look back to my explanation of why hb is a tight community, when better is emotion and ethics a role than when one person who should help fellow brewers stabs another in the back. and as far as doing something about it, if it WERE my lhbs, i sure as hell would never go back...

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

in the end he is just hurting himself.

Only if people stop buying from him

Ok sorry, I am getting a littl druck an just had to reply

 

[FlyingHorse]

yes, I get it---read my comment above. There's much more competition online, and people can compare prices and deals instantly with 10 other stores---so he probably realizes that he would get crushed by the competition on the internet, whereas at the local store, he doesn't have that same competition. It's not that he doesn't WANT to do the whole "you have to by grain" thing on the internet, it's that he CAN'T.

I guess I understand what he's TRYING to do, but it's just dumb, because
(a) there's too much transparency, so people coming in the store will quickly become aware of the situation
(b) it's likely to piss people off
(c) it's so easily circumvented -- you can actually go on his web site, order UNLIMITED hops, and for shipping, enter

(wait for it)










(wait for it)






















STORE PICKUP!

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

First and foremost, i think the "capitalism" camp has been disrespectful to a degree. The OP was looking for some agreement/sympathy/listening ear from a community that should feel outraged about that.

The OP said it was a QUESTION, then opened it up for a DISCUSSION. Lo and behold a discussion got opposing points of view.

As far as the tight knit community comment: how many people in America buy gas vs. how many people homebrew? how about the fact that of all the people on this site that go to lhbs

The gas situation (not to start a new argument) is more that people HAVE to buy gas to earn a living, you DO NOT HAVE to homebrew. And not ALL people go to a lhbs, I personally have never been in one. I have done all my shopping online.

you want to mock me by saying "do i really think the 'community' wouldn't act like a business," thats just bull. My lhbs doesn't act like that and unless you are so rich that you can scoff at the idea of being forced to buy products you don't need to get the product you do, then i'm sure that would bother you too, regardless of "capitalism."

Well, the fact that this is a small hobby niche, I am pretty sure that any store you buy from is a BUSINESS. great if your lhbs has more lenient policies, it is their choice. Just like it would be their choice if they decide to adopt practices just like the store the OP mentioned.

And as far as the high horse comment: i've already touched on that, you start lecturing basic economics like you are so great? ... deathweed gets no comment, you admitted you responded in an ignorant way,

So lecturing us that we have opposing points of view doesn't put you on a high horse? And I don't remember EVER saying I was ignorant, just that I might have been a little "disrespectful" (and that still holds true)

i agree with you it is a valid economic practice,

the first point I believe that we were trying to make

but it is morally ignorant to do that to someone who just wants to buy their product and go

morally ignorant? or common BUSINESS practice?

if it WERE my lhbs, i sure as hell would never go back...

The SECOND point the capitalist camp was trying to make.

Glad we could agree on our major points

 

[uglygoat]

you could always win the auction, with some crazy high bid, then never pay him. me thinks he still has to pay listing fees based on the sale price....

did i type that out loud?

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

This whole thread has gone off-topic. Do people really need to argue about economic practices, business ethics, etc?

I have definitely come away from this thread with knowledge, but it's certainly not what I was looking for.

I'd bet that most of you would have more respect for each other face to face than on this board. I appreciate the points that both sides have made, however this was never intended as a economic practices debate.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

Somehow I see that coming back to bite you in the rear somehow.... May be worth looking into:cross:

 

[uglygoat]

obviously you'd want multiple ebay accounts if you were to engage in said practice.

this is an ethics thread right? :cross:

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

... HA...

I guess it is an "ethics" thread, however its more of a "Good Will Hunting" "This Kid is Wicked Smaat" "How Do You Like Them Apples" type of thread...

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

I'd bet that most of you would have more respect for each other face to face than on this board. I appreciate the points that both sides have made, however this was never intended as a economic practices debate.

I apologize for my part in the economic practices debate, it is a bit OT, but when discussion happens....

As far as being more respect for each other, I respect everyone on here, and I am sorry if sometimes it does not come off that way. when I am disrespectful, it is because I believe in bluntness, truthfulness, and not PC question dodging. I make it a point not to type anything I wouldn't say to someones face. You can ask my wife (if you knew her of course) I am a crass, blunt person, who does not sugar coat what I think. I would be perfectly comfortable having this conversation face to face over a beer in a bar. thats how discussions are supposed to be had, right?

So Oblivion and anyone else, I am not looking to pick a fight or offend, I say what I think, sometimes even in a point by point refutation.... But at the end of the post/thread/discussion, I would stand up, shake your hand, and offer to buy the next round

RDWHAHB applies to more than just, "will my beer be ok?"

 

[Evan!]

This whole thread has gone off-topic. Do people really need to argue about economic practices, business ethics, etc?

I have definitely come away from this thread with knowledge, but it's certainly not what I was looking for.

I'd bet that most of you would have more respect for each other face to face than on this board. I appreciate the points that both sides have made, however this was never intended as a economic practices debate.

No offense, but next time you start a thread called "Question of Ethics...", I wouldn't go into it expecting people to refrain from discussing ethics. I don't know exactly what type of knowledge you were "looking for", but let's reflect on your original statement:

I was browsing Ebay tonight looking for decent deals on equipment, and found a guy thats selling whole leaf, pellet, and plug hops in 8 oz to full pound quantities. Since he had quite a few up for sale, I looked him up, and found he owns a shop in my area.

The funny thing is, when you go to this guys store, he won't sell you hops without buying a recipe kit. If I can buy his hops (ONLY HOPS, no recipe) on ebay, shouldn't I be able to do the same in his shop?

Not only that, but his prices in store are completely different than on his ebay "store" and he is definitely price gouging.

I have had issues with this guy before messing up a recipe (horribly I might add), but this just seems completely rediculous.

Perhaps I'm off-point on this, but does anyone else have an opinion on this situation?

You questioned the ethics of a business practice, flat out accused them of price gouging, then explicitly asked for people's opinions. What did you expect to come from that? If you were looking for a bunch of people to commiserate with you on the horrible actions of this guy, then you should have come out and said so. But you questioned someone's ethics and explicitly asked for opinions on it. I can't believe you expected anything else than what this is.

As far as respect, I have the utmost respect for people who discuss/debate matters in a civilized manner, and I apologize for my matter-of-factness coming across as malice or disrespect; that's certainly not how I feel. The interwebs are funny like that---it's really difficult to pull someone's tone and emotional vibe from words. But I assure you that while my posts are often heated and passionate, they're not meant to disrespect anyone. It's nothing personal, I just have problems when people judge others based on what I feel are faulty premises.

Furthermore, the reason this turned into a debate on economics is because you explicitly accused this business of gouging. You said, "he is definitely price gouging." That's quite an accusation, and one that I felt needed to be corrected. The way I tried to do that was by explaining some economic principles. At the same time, I had a problem with your claim that you've taken classes on economics and understand them, since I found your definition of price gouging to be way off the mark.

These are the reasons it turned into what it did. Again, I meant no disrespect and I still don't---but next time, really, if you're looking for people to commiserate with, just say so, rather than making serious accusations and then asking for opinions.

Cheers,

Evan

 

[Evan!]

I don't take any offense to anyone speaking their mind. Thats why my thread is called "QUESTION of ethics..." and not "THIS GUY HAS NO ETHICS". IMO, there is a big difference between those statements. Also, why do you think I put Crisis in quotes?

Regardless of whether you put "question" in your title, the glaringly obvious fact of the matter is, you said "he is definitely price gouging."

The bottom line is that you can still state your opinion without trying to teach someone something they might already know. I'm not saying anyone is on a high horse, however I can see how some might take it that way. I have taken many courses on ethics, logic, philosophy as well as business classes. However, when I have an opinion on a given topic, I don't feel the need to lend footnotes for each statement I make and create a thesis from an opinion.

The bottom line is that I felt that your accusation of "price gouging" displayed your lack of understanding of the concept of price gouging, which is why I felt the need to interject with some basic economic principles. I genuinely thought/think that you didn't know, otherwise you wouldn't have said "he is definitely price gouging." I wasn't trying to teach you something you didn't already know. Not only that, but if you don't like what I'm posting, feel free to skip right on over it. It's up to you, I won't take offense. Honest.

The bottom line is that this guy is limiting the amount of hops he sells in store to create revenue online. Yes, he can do that. Yes, they are infact his hops and his to sell as he likes. I don't agree with his business practices, and in the end he is just hurting himself.

Perhaps, but do you still think that he is "price gouging"?

 

[Evan!]

First and foremost, i think the "capitalism" camp has been disrespectful to a degree. The OP was looking for some agreement/sympathy/listening ear from a community that should feel outraged about that. To then BASICALLY (not literally) call him and those in his school of thought idiots because "hey, its basic economics, tough" is ignorant.

I didn't call anyone an idiot, basically or otherwise. I just said that his claim of price gouging belied a lack of understanding of economics. I never said anything about idiocy.

And again, if he was just looking for people to commiserate with, to pat him on the back and say "damn, dude, that sucks, that guy's a bastard", then he should have just come out and said so, rather than questioning his ethics, accusing him of price gouging, then asking for our opinions.

 

[Beerrific]

Do you know why he is doing this? Not to sound like a jerk or something, but have you ask him about it? It doesn't make much sense to not sell the same product in the store for the same price unless there are other circumstances that makes it complicated.

I can think of a couple reasons why he might have this policy and I wouldn't think that a store that has been in business for a number of years would prevent itself from making a possible sale.

 

[Bobby_M]

I totally agree Evan. The way the OP phrased the question and the entire post was begging for a good old debate. Using words like ethics and morals just about force a debate. If this forum enacted a rule that said something like "Please only post a reply to a thread if you have sympathy or otherwise agree with the poster you are replying to", I'd be off to the greenboard in two seconds flat.

I'm a firm believer that if you make any statement in public, you should think about it enough beforehand that you can defend it afterward. Some ideas hold up, some don't, but we're all adults here.

If Noclue would have said, "this situation sucks, I wish I could buy as much hops as I want",

I'd say..."yeah, I know right?". I agree this hop shortage and resultant price hike blows goats.

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

Evan- Perhaps price gouging was not the correct term. You obviously have that quote button down.

I have not asked him why he is limiting sales in store and allowing bulk sales online. With the amount of restriction that stores in my area (Boston, MA) are putting on hop sales, he could make a good bit of business if he allowed people to buy in bulk in store. This would also pull people into his store to increase sales.

Baiting the consumers with a sales policy that others don't offer IS smart business. Making people buy online (not even his stores website, but on ebay) where all of his products aren't available for sale is not.

Call it what you like, this guy is still a ******.

 

[Bobby_M]

And as far as the high horse comment: i've already touched on that, you start lecturing basic economics like you are so great? the one poster said "i'll slap you with facts if you disrespect my opinion" hey, what do you think you are doing, but disrespecting the OP and my opinions!

When someone's statements cause you to believe they lack the basics of the topic in question, you can either walk away or provide the "lecture". Which one promotes more learning?

If you're going to quote me literally using quotation marks, at least copy and paste the actual statement instead of paraphrasing it and getting it wrong.

Sorry if offended anyone.

 

[Bobby_M]

Baiting the consumers with a sales policy that others don't offer IS smart business. Making people buy online (not even his stores website, but on ebay) where all of his products aren't available for sale is not.

Call it what you like, this guy is still a ******.

I wonder if the owner of the store is the same guy. There's a posibility that the owner enacted this policy in house and the guy selling on Ebay is an employee who's pulling some kind of scam. I don't know, just speculating.

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

Sorry if offended anyone.

You have offended me Bobby: you have far more time to build your toys than I do!

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

Newp... its the same guy... I have spoken to him on the phone before, and his response on ebay was signed by the same name.

 

[OblivionsGate]

I apologize for my part in the economic practices debate, it is a bit OT, but when discussion happens....

So Oblivion and anyone else, I am not looking to pick a fight or offend, I say what I think, sometimes even in a point by point refutation.... But at the end of the post/thread/discussion, I would stand up, shake your hand, and offer to buy the next round

RDWHAHB applies to more than just, "will my beer be ok?"

Thank you for the clarification, I'm not looking to pick a fight either, but its hard to get the meaning conveyed by tone and facial expression in person when we just type flat words on the net!

That being said, i'd rather ease the tension and slow the conversation than continue the rants, so all i will say is that I do agree with the economic points, i just personally feel that shady economic practices like what is going on with the OP are more out of place in a small business servicing those with similar interests, than the actions of an oil company for example. We feel differently about that, not the end of the world.