Question for folks who use Nitro

[tntpilsner]

I just got a Nitro setup (actually 75/25 beer gas) and put my first stout on it, an Irish stout recipe that I've brewed several times now.
I put it in the keezer and carbed it with CO2 at first, approx. 20 psi for 48 hours or so, then put the beer gas tank on it at 30 psi. It's at 36F.
It seems flat-ish to me, and definitely does not have the 'cascade' effect or a nice foamy head. I do have a Nitro tap (CM Becker V3N). Tastes great, though.
I mentioned this to my LHBS guy, who also owns a microbrewery, and he said that in the future I should:
-Carb to 1-2 psi with CO2
-Then 24 hours on beer gas at 10 psi
-Then serve at 28-30 psi
IF I understood him correctly (and I think I did?), he said that if you over-carb initially you will not get the cascading effect.

Does that sound correct to those of you with Nitro/beer gas experience?
If it makes any difference, this is the batch that I saw the pellicles on when I racked it to the keg.

 

[Vale71]

The second step makes no sense. 10 PSI with 75/25 beer gas is 2.5 PSI partial CO2 pressure, that's the same pressure you carbed your beer to. Basically you're letting the beer sit 24 hours with nothing happening to it.
But as soon as you raise pressure to 30 PSI you'll have 7.5 PSI partial CO2 pressure and your beer will start carbonating again...

 

[Jag75]

It takes a little bit to get it exact. You carb it up with co2 first . Then you put it on your beer gas @ 30 - 35 psi. I cant remember exactly what I set mine to. You will notice the at first the cascade isnt that grand . It will get more and more noticeable. It doesnt happen over night. I want to say carb on co2 until 1.5 -1.8 then attach to beer gas.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I've kept my chocolate stout on 75/25 beer gas through a Micromatic stout faucet for years now and my routine is to carb to 1.2-1.4 volumes on straight CO2 and dispense at 35 psi...

Cheers!

 

[Franktalk]

Just for another perspective, I cold condition my beer on beer gas for two days at about 35-40 psi, and it is ready to go. I have a stout faucet with a creamer--I think that is essential equipment. Serving on beer gas works better if it is conditioned on beer gas.

 

[tntpilsner]

Thanks everyone for the feedback, I'm learning alot.

fwiw, I've kept my chocolate stout on 75/25 beer gas through a Micromatic stout faucet for years now and my routine is to carb to 1.2-1.4 volumes on straight CO2 and dispense at 35 psi...

Cheers!

I've seen numbers similar to this...I'm a little confused though, if I enter in 1.3 volumes at 40F on a keg carbonation calculator, it tells me that I need to carb at -.8 psi.
So I'm not quite sure what to do there, or if I'm doing something wrong?

Just for another perspective, I cold condition my beer on beer gas for two days at about 35-40 psi, and it is ready to go. I have a stout faucet with a creamer--I think that is essential equipment. Serving on beer gas works better if it is conditioned on beer gas.

That's interesting! I may give that a shot on an upcoming batch and see how it comes out. I have a C M Becker V3N nitro stout, it has the restrictor plate, but not a creamer. I didn't realize it when I got it - but they call it a nitro faucet and I'm assuming it should give the cascading and nice mouthfeel whenever I dial my keg in right.

 

[Jag75]

I use the intertap nitro faucet with restrictor plate and it works wonderfully.

 

[bracconiere]

it tells me that I need to carb at -.8 psi.

never used nitro, but had to say...LOL negative co2 pressure! what calc are you using?

 

[Vale71]

The calculator is just giving him the CO2 partial pressure, it doesn't know about the nitro.
Beer at 40°F already holds more than 1.3 vols of CO2 at atmospheric pressure hence the negative pressure.
What it means in practice is that at these temperatures it's impossible to achieve such a low carbonation.

EDIT: just tried this with Beersmith 2. It must have some sanity check as it gives only 0.0 bar pressure, but it does tell me to add "negative sugar".

 

[tntpilsner]

The calculator is just giving him the CO2 partial pressure, it doesn't know about the nitro.
Beer at 40°F already holds more than 1.3 vols of CO2 at atmospheric pressure hence the negative pressure.
What it means in practice is that at these temperatures it's impossible to achieve such a low carbonation.

EDIT: just tried this with Beersmith 2. It must have some sanity check as it gives only 0.0 bar pressure, but it does tell me to add "negative sugar".

Wow that is good to know, thanks. And funny! Beersmith is a trip.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Beer at 40°F already holds more than 1.3 vols of CO2 at atmospheric pressure hence the negative pressure.
What it means in practice is that at these temperatures it's impossible to achieve such a low carbonation.[...]

Unless one leaves a vessel filled with beer open to the elements at 40°F for enough time to reach equilibrium there's no way it's going to be sitting at 1.3 volumes of CO2.

Try again, keeping in mind most people package beer with only whatever residual carbonation was left from fermentation, measured post-fermentation and at the highest temperature the beer "saw" thereafter...

Cheers!

 

[tntpilsner]

...
Try again, keeping in mind most people package beer with only whatever residual carbonation was left from fermentation, measured post-fermentation and at the highest temperature the beer "saw" thereafter...

Cheers!

OK sorry, now I'm confused. What would that look like if, for example, I rack to the keg from the Primary at approx. 70F? (Assuming 70F was the highest temp the beer saw during fermentation).
Just looking for how many psi to carb to in this situation before putting it on Nitro.
Thanks again.

 

[Jag75]

At 1.8 volumes @ 38 f you would set your reg at approximately 4 psi. It will take time to get it to 1.8 volumes. If you want it sooner then later I suggest setting to co2 to 30 psi for 24- 36 hours . Then connect to your gas blend tank.

If you want it lower volumes say around 1.4 then its gonna be less then 4 psi. Imo it's a thing you adjust as you go .

https://www.brewersfriend.com/keg-carbonation-calculator/

 

[Vale71]

Unless one leaves a vessel filled with beer open to the elements at 40°F for enough time to reach equilibrium there's no way it's going to be sitting at 1.3 volumes of CO2.

Which is exactly what I'm saying BTW. In a 100% CO2 atmosphere you'd need less than atmospheric pressure to achieve equilibrium with only 1.3 vols and that's why the calculators give a negative (relative to atmospheric pressure) headspace pressure.

Try again, keeping in mind most people package beer with only whatever residual carbonation was left from fermentation, measured post-fermentation and at the highest temperature the beer "saw" thereafter...

All of which is of course completely irrelevant if force carbing.

 

[Vale71]

OK sorry, now I'm confused. What would that look like if, for example, I rack to the keg from the Primary at approx. 70F? (Assuming 70F was the highest temp the beer saw during fermentation).
Just looking for how many psi to carb to in this situation before putting it on Nitro.
Thanks again.

Forget fermentation temperature or any other temperature, that's only of concern if you're priming. If you're force carbing the only thing that matters is equilibrium pressure at a given temperature for a desired carbonation level. The calculator is correct in telling you that in a closed vessel filled with 100% CO2 at that temperature and that desired carbonation level you'd need a partial vacuum to achieve that, which is of course impossible.

 

[day_trippr]

This may help the stubborn see some factual light...

So, let's take an example: fully ferment beer at 65°F and what will be left for carbonation will be around 0.89 volumes. Keg that, chill it down, and it's still only 0.89 volumes. Not 1.3...

Cheers!

 

[Jag75]

day trippr , so if you have a fully fermented beer @65f which gives you .89 volumes of co2. You keg it chill it to say 38 , you still have beer at .89 volumes . How do you get it to 1.3 volumes?

I get my stouts to around 1.7-8 , I've never set for 1.3 . How long does it take to get to the desired volumes? In my experience it take longer then a week . That's why I force carb and probably why everyone that force carbs does so.

 

[day_trippr]

The solution is simple: I don't crash my chocolate imperial stout (what's the point?) so it's sitting around 65-66°F when I keg it. Per our favorite carbonation table I apply 6-7 psi and in the fullness of time it'll equalize at ~1.2 volumes. Then it gets cold-conditioned awaiting its turn in the keezer.

As for time: roughly the same 2 weeks as everything else I brew - but that's only because I'm not trying to move the needle much with the stout (~ 0.4 volumes) vs the 1.6 to almost 2 volumes for everything else...

Cheers!

 

[Vale71]

This may help the stubborn see some factual light...

Sorry, but the only one who is stubborn and is also completely missing the point is you...
The OP asked about carbing a keg chilled to 40°F to 1.3 vols and why the calculator was telling him that he needed negative pressure to achieve that. Neither how much CO2 is in the beer after primary or at what temperature you like to condition your beer has any relevance to the question.

By the way, if you were to carb to 1.2 vols at 66°F and then to chill the beer down to 40°F without CO2 attached the equilibrium point will still be below atmospheric pressure, which means that the beer will pull CO2 from the headspace until atmospheric pressure is reached and from that point on you no longer have a sealed keg. Hope you like oxydized beer...

 

[day_trippr]

Actually, I posted that table to refute this bit of nonsense:

[...]Beer at 40°F already holds more than 1.3 vols of CO2 at atmospheric pressure hence the negative pressure.[...]

It doesn't - unless one adds CO2 to post-fermented beer. Which also refutes this:

[...]The OP asked about carbing a keg chilled to 40°F to 1.3 vols and why the calculator was telling him that he needed negative pressure to achieve that. Neither how much CO2 is in the beer after primary or at what temperature you like to condition your beer has any relevance to the question.

Actually, it matters, because your take implied the beer is already overcarbed fresh out of the fermentor.

By the way, if you were to carb to 1.2 vols at 66°F and then to chill the beer down to 40°F without CO2 attached the equilibrium point will still be below atmospheric pressure, which means that the beer will pull CO2 from the headspace until atmospheric pressure is reached and from that point on you no longer have a sealed keg. Hope you like oxydized beer...

Ummm....what??

Leaving aside the implication that a keg's head space magically has an unlimited supply of CO2 "without CO2 attached", apparently you believe a keg can't maintain a seal if the internal pressure has somehow equalized with the atmosphere.

I shouldn't be surprised, coming from someone who adamantly believes beer will clear faster without a cold-crash

Cheer

 

[Jag75]

Now I'm getting confused lol. I though just hooking co2 up to my keg was a basic thing haha

 

[Vale71]

Actually, I posted that table to refute this bit of nonsense:



It doesn't - unless one adds CO2 to post-fermented beer. Which also refutes this:



Actually, it matters, because your take implied the beer is already overcarbed fresh out of the fermentor.



Ummm....what??

Leaving aside the implication that a keg's head space magically has an unlimited supply of CO2 "without CO2 attached", apparently you believe a keg can't maintain a seal if the internal pressure has somehow equalized with the atmosphere.

I shouldn't be surprised, coming from someone who adamantly believes beer will clear faster without a cold-crash

Cheer

I'm speechless, it's like we're talking different languages.
When I say that if you lower the temperature dramatically the beer will absorb CO2 from the headspace until internal pressure equalizes with external, what in this statement implies that I believe the headspace has an unlimited, magical supply of CO2? I'm pretty sure I'm unequivocally saying exactly the opposite but you somehow manage to completely misunderstand my very simple and straightforward statement? Either your grasp of English is grossly insufficient or you're so intent on mounting a personal attack on me that you don't even realize how absurd your statements are.
BTW, any rookie homebrewer will learn pretty quickly that cornys don't hold a seal unless they have some amount of internal pressure but you somehow seem to ignore even that simple fact. Do you also believe that they will hold a seal once a vacuum starts forming as more CO2 is pulled into the beer without being replenished?
I never said the beer had that much CO2 fresh out of the fermentor, you're attributing statements to me that I never even indirectly made! This is not the context we're discussing and you seem to have completely missed that as well. We're talking about force carbing in a sealed keg, for crying out loud!
I'm done wasting time with you, bye.

 

[Jag75]

 

[day_trippr]

Yeah, I have no idea what that word salad is supposed to mean.
I've provided a method of (1) reasonably determining residual carbonation and (2) bringing a beer up to a very low carbonation level.

I'm out...

Cheers!

 

[spittybug]

I've done hundreds of beers by now. My CO2 is set at 11 psi, my nitro at 35 psi. After cold crashing I attach to the appropriate gas and wait a week or two. Time is your friend. My nitro beers are always smooth and creamy. My 'normal' beers are carbonated. Don't over think it.

 

[tntpilsner]

Wow thanks for all the info here. I forgot my flame suit though, haha.
OK well the deal now is that I kegged on the 14th and carbed it for 48 hours before putting on the Nitro (actually beer gas) at 30 psi.
After several days of nothing (very small amount of bubbles and no cascading), I upped the keezer to 40F and have left the beer on beer gas.
Still nothing - last night I got a few small bubbles on the side of the glass and some lacing, maybe it's getting better slowly but nothing close to correct yet.
I'll continue to leave it on 30 psi on beer gas, hopefully it will do better as it goes along. Thanks again.

 

[Jag75]

Set it to 35 psi and see how it does

 

[tntpilsner]

OK will do, thanks.