Question about sulphite usage in traditional cider making with wild yeasts

[PulpFiction]

Hey all,

I’m curious about how sulphites are used in traditional cider making, particularly when wild yeasts are being relied upon for fermentation.

Specifically:

• Do cider makers use a reduced dose of sulphites to suppress unwanted bacteria while still allowing wild yeasts to thrive and ferment?
• If so, what would the typical sulphite dosage (in ppm) be for this purpose?
• I assume potassium metabisulphite would be the standard choice for this?

I’ve noticed that some well-known cider makers, like Tom Oliver, list “sulphites - trace” on their bottles, even though their ciders are wild fermented. Does this suggest the use of a very low dose of sulphites?


Cheers!

 

[Maylar]

Hey all,

I’m curious about how sulphites are used in traditional cider making, particularly when wild yeasts are being relied upon for fermentation.

Specifically:

• Do cider makers use a reduced dose of sulphites to suppress unwanted bacteria while still allowing wild yeasts to thrive and ferment?

Yes.

• If so, what would the typical sulphite dosage (in ppm) be for this purpose?

The rule of thumb is half the normal dose. So about 25 ppm for a typical cider.

• I assume potassium metabisulphite would be the standard choice for this?

Yes.

I’ve noticed that some well-known cider makers, like Tom Oliver, list “sulphites - trace” on their bottles, even though their ciders are wild fermented. Does this suggest the use of a very low dose of sulphites?


Cheers!

I would assume so. Sulfite is often used at bottling time as an antioxidant and to assist any K-Sorbate (if used) in doing its job.

 

[dmtaylor]

If I'm going with wild fermentation, I don't use any suphite at all. Sometimes it will go bad, most other times it will turn out great. Some simple advice I can offer: Split your batch into multiple fermentation vessels, expecting that one or two of them won't turn out good, while the others will be great. Bottle the good stuff, dump the bad. No chemical treatment necessary.

Others won't agree and that's fine, but this is as traditional as traditional gets!

 

[PulpFiction]

Yes.

The rule of thumb is half the normal dose. So about 25 ppm for a typical cider.

Yes.

I would assume so. Sulfite is often used at bottling time as an antioxidant and to assist any K-Sorbate (if used) in doing its job.

Thanks, just the info I was looking for!

 

[Yooper]

Hey all,

I’m curious about how sulphites are used in traditional cider making, particularly when wild yeasts are being relied upon for fermentation.

Specifically:

• Do cider makers use a reduced dose of sulphites to suppress unwanted bacteria while still allowing wild yeasts to thrive and ferment?
• If so, what would the typical sulphite dosage (in ppm) be for this purpose?
• I assume potassium metabisulphite would be the standard choice for this?

I’ve noticed that some well-known cider makers, like Tom Oliver, list “sulphites - trace” on their bottles, even though their ciders are wild fermented. Does this suggest the use of a very low dose of sulphites?


Cheers!

Sulfites are naturally occurring as a by product of fermentation, so it could be where the 'trace' of sulfites come from, or they could use sulfites as a sanitizing product which would also leave a trace of sulfites. Not 0, but not more than probably 10 ppm or so.

Wine yeast strains are tolerant of sulfites, but wild yeast strains usually are not. For wild fermentations, it's a roll of the dice if you'll get some great wild yeast or some not-so-great yeast and/or bacteria. I had one batch that unfortuneately smelled like stinky feet when I did a wild fermentation, but yet the next batch was pretty darn good. Since then, though, I use sulfites and innoculate my must with my chosen yeast strain.

I have noticed that some of my wild fermentations of food and kombucha turn out great at my house in Florida vs my house in Michigan. I make wonderful kimchee in Florida, and even the best sourdough bread, but in Michigan sometimes my sauerkraut isn't as great. Humidity, temperature, environment, all play a role. You could try to make the environment more 'friendly' to certain types of microbes by keeping it warmer or colder, etc, but I just don't have the ability to do that usually. For my kombucha, though, I'll use a heat mat when it's cold to keep it above 72, which seems to be the sweet spot for my kombucha.

 

[Maylar]

Sulfites are naturally occurring as a by product of fermentation, so it could be where the 'trace' of sulfites come from

That's a really good point, Yoop. The OP seems to be in the UK. On this side of the pond I would expect a label to say, "No added sulfites" for that. Perhaps "Trace amounts" is the UK version of that.

 

[An Ankoù]

Hey all,

I’m curious about how sulphites are used in traditional cider making, particularly when wild yeasts are being relied upon for fermentation.

Specifically:

• Do cider makers use a reduced dose of sulphites to suppress unwanted bacteria while still allowing wild yeasts to thrive and ferment?
• If so, what would the typical sulphite dosage (in ppm) be for this purpose?
• I assume potassium metabisulphite would be the standard choice for this?

I’ve noticed that some well-known cider makers, like Tom Oliver, list “sulphites - trace” on their bottles, even though their ciders are wild fermented. Does this suggest the use of a very low dose of sulphites?


Cheers!

Back in the day, wild yeast was perhaps the best way to go. But nowadays we have specific cider yeasts available in sachets. My last batch used MJ M02 and it worked out great.
As for sulphites, I used to hose the apples down in a large trug and the give the a wash with MBS, but I stopped doing that as it slowed oxidation of the juice. I get better colour and flavour by letting the juice darken during the scratting and pressing processes. I'm not convinced we need to fear a bit of oxidation in cider in the same we we do in beers.

 

[Maylar]

Back in the day, wild yeast was perhaps the best way to go. But nowadays we have specific cider yeasts available in sachets. My last batch used MJ M02 and it worked out great.

Yes, but "farmhouse" ciders have become a thing today. Locally pressed apples fermented at cold temps with wild yeast. It takes a few months to complete. "Back to nature" marketing.

 

[An Ankoù]

Yes, but "farmhouse" ciders have become a thing today. Locally pressed apples fermented at cold temps with wild yeast. It takes a few months to complete. "Back to nature" marketing.

I think you're right, but I have a vision of a cider barn with its press and vats that has been used for centuries for making cider and which is thoroughly impregnated with its own yeast, much like the rafters of the Lambic breweries of Belgium. Or the orchards harbour a local yeast which have lived there for generations without being subject to pest control.
Or maybe I'm just an old romantic and things dot really work like that in the real world. All I know is that after a hard day's scratting and pressing I don't want to leave things to chance.
BUT. There's no reason why I shouldn't let some of the batch ferment spontaneously, just to see what happens. I've got books on cider and I'll have to look up what they say about MBS.

 

[Maylar]

I’ve noticed that some well-known cider makers, like Tom Oliver, list “sulphites - trace” on their bottles, even though their ciders are wild fermented. Does this suggest the use of a very low dose of sulphites?

From the Oliver Cider web site:

Many of our ciders and perries have no added SULPHITES and will contain those generated by wild yeast fermentation which is typically 10-15ppm. We only use SULPHITES post fermentation, at racking and packaging and then typically we are looking for 30ppm free and a total of between 50-80ppm. The legal limit for cider in the UK is 200ppm total. ALL WILL BE DECLARED ON EACH PRODUCT'S LABEL.

 

[Maylar]

BUT. There's no reason why I shouldn't let some of the batch ferment spontaneously, just to see what happens.

The French are no strangers to cider -

 

[PulpFiction]

From the Oliver Cider web site:

Hey thanks for pointing that out - missed it!

Having done a bit more research it seems like when doing a wild ferment the cleanliness of the process is even more critical, the juice should also contain enough acid and like mentioned above if a campden tablet then the amount should be halved so some of the wild yeasts survive.

As an alternative, it is possible to rely on the few wild Saccharomycesyeasts which will be present in the juice after sulphiting, and allow them to multiply to sufficient levels to start the fermentation, but this may take up to 2 or 3 weeks. In this case you might prefer to use around half the addition of sulphite given in the Table. This is equivalent to the traditional practice of burning a 'sulphur candle' in the barrel before adding fresh juice. If neither sulphite nor yeast are added, the juice will probably start to ferment within a day, but the wild yeasts which multiply under these conditions cannot be guaranteed to produce desirable flavours. [1]

Sources:

[1] http://cider.org.uk/part3.htm

 

[Miraculix]

Yes, but "farmhouse" ciders have become a thing today. Locally pressed apples fermented at cold temps with wild yeast. It takes a few months to complete. "Back to nature" marketing.

It's not only about marketing, it has it's own distinctive taste. I love wild brews! Need to brew some beer with my sourdough soon. Thanks for the reminder!