Pump problems

[mtbruer]

Hello,

This is my first post here. I've been slowly acquiring the equipment to upgrade my system from 5 to 10 gal. batches. I don't want a 3 tier system due to back problems. I wanted to keep everything on one level and avoid lifting as much as possible. I recently used some gift money to buy a march pump to enable moving water and wort about. Well, this past weekend I gave the pump it's inaugural run with a 5 gal batch as a trial. The result was less than I had hoped. My garage floor was soaked with water and beer. I had endless problems getting the pump primed unless I unhooked one of the hoses at the pump which then spilled water or wort everywhere as I tried to hook them back up. The pump didn't fully drain the mash tun so I ended up having to hook up a line to the mash tun afterwards and let it drain into a pitcher and the pour it into the boil kettle. And cleaning the lines and pump afterwards was a chore as well. Now I'm thinking that I may have made a mistake in buying this pump. It definitely added more work and frustration to my brew day which was the exact opposite of what I intended.

I know there are a lot of folks out there who use pumps, would you mind sharing your tips with me. I'm very frustrated with it at the moment and thinking that I should just stick with gravity and 5 gal batches.

Thanks
mtbruer

 

[Brewpastor]

First off, welcome.

Second, pumps are a blessing and a curse. I use both gravity and a pump on my set-up and therefore have a 2 tier system, where the mash tun is elevated.

Think about bleeder valves and quick connect fittings, that kind of thing. Don't give up. Check out some other set ups or post a thread asking for pictures of pump set-ups for some ideas.

Good luck.

 

[Brewpastor]

Another idea is to use a grant and pump out of that. A grant is a collection vessel that allows the lauter run-off to utilize gravity. This can involve a float switch, but it does not have to.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have hoses directly connected to the pump, but they attach to the vessels with quick disconnects. That way you can open up the "out" line to vent air and get the pump primed. I still havn't done a full brewday with all pumping so I may still encounter some of your issues. I do have in my mind that if this doesn't work, I will make a grant out of a small stainless pot.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=44004&page=3

 

[mtbruer]

Thanks for the welcome and the quick replies.
I currently have quick connects on all my hoses and equipment.
I also have a ball valve on the 'out' side of the pump.

My process to begin pumping was to open all the valves on the sending and receiving kettles and on the pump and let
gravity prime the pump. However that didn't seem to work.
The only way I could get the pump primed was to disconnect
either the inlet or outlet hose at the pump momentarily and then
reconnect it. Unfortunately that also spills liquid all over the place.

I'm curious about the bleeder valve idea. Where would that be located, on the pump?

 

[The Pol]

I just bought a march pump, still have to plumb it... but if you are feeding the pump with gravity, why is it so hard to prime? I have never read about priming issues with these pumps unitl now, now I am worried that it may be a complete pain the arse to go from a 3 tier to a single tier system....

My vessels and water levels will all be 3'-4' above the pump... shouldnt it prime itself if the "out" valve is open?

 

[Brewpastor]

The bleeder valve would go on the outlet side of the pump. But from what you describe it sounds like you are doing everything you should.

 

[Bobby_M]

It helps to orient the "out" port of the pump upwards to encourage air to rise out of the pump body. Do the disconnects on the pump hose seal when they are disconnected? If so, that's why you're not venting the pump housing.

A bleeder valve can be as simple as a Tee right off the pump output with a valve that goes nowhere but air. Once you let the wort flow to the pump, you crack open the bleeder to "bleed" air out. You close is just as you see wort/liquid.

 

[pjj2ba]

I sort of have a one tier system. After my pump I have a tee with valves on both outlets. One outlet does double duty and is used for vorlaufing and during chilling (I have a plate chiller and recirculate until the whole wort is down to 150F). The second is basically the drain, either for cooled wort into a carboy, or sanitizing liquid after its been recirculated a couple of minutes. This second one is also what I use to prime the pump. I just open this valve (the outlet is lower than the pump) until the liquid gets to the Tee and then close the valve. It's primed.

 

[The Pol]

If the "out" valve is open, why wouldnt the head pressure (say 4' above the pump) force the air out??

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

When you have an hour or so to experiment. Do a mock brew with water only. Just work on routing the water like you would on a brew day. This way, only water will spill and it will be a lot less frustrating.

I have also heard of many problems when pumps are misaligned. The outlet of the pump should be pointing vertically up, so air can vent. I think a lot of people picture it the other way, thinking water will "pour in" from the top. placing the outlet above the inlet is the only way the pump will easily fill without cavitating and causing harm to the internals of the pump.

Good luck and good choice joining this forum, everyone on hear is really knowledgeable and eager to help and share opinions!

 

[The Pol]

I will do this with my new pump, ordered last Saturday from AHS... I will mount it this way and do a mock brew to see how the transfers flow... never even assumed there would be an issue with all of that head pressure coming down.

 

[foppa78]

My pump inlet is on the top and my bleeder valve is there as well. Air rises and it is allowed to vent and primes the pump at the same time. In this picture you should be able to see this. I now have another elbow coming out of the bleeder ball valve that dumps any liquid into a container.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

One more plug for orienting your outlet upwards so the air can escape. I don't have a T with a purge valve, but I like the idea. Note that you don't have to remount the bracket, just unscrew the 4 bolts holding the head on and rotate it 90º. Should only take 60 secs and it should make priming much easier.

This weekend was my first brew day using quick disconnects, and it was very easy to move the hoses around to switch where I was pumping from/to. Highly recommended - and use 1/2" hoses - much higher flow rate than 3/8"!

One thing you mentioned was that your MLT didn't fully drain. Try to limit the pump flow rate as you're pumping out of the MLT so that the wort can make its way down through the grain bed as it drains. Otherwise, you'll suck out the wort at the bottom, break siphon, and leave a lot behind.

 

[mtbruer]

Everyone,

Thanks for all the tips. I'm feeling a bit more optimistic about the next attempt.
Lil Sparky thanks for the advice on limiting the pump output from the MT. I'm pretty sure I just had it wide open. That would explain why it didn't drain completely.

As far as orienting the pump outlet facing up, would that still be necessary if there was a bleeder valve? I also don't quite get how filling the pump from the bottom would be easier than from the side as it is now, seems like it would take more pressure to prime it? I know I probably wrong, just trying to get my head around that.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Orienting the pump outlet upwards just allows any trapped air to escape, and you want it out of the head, downstream. Otherwise the pump will just suck it back up. If the pump is mounted even 6-8" below the vessel you're pumping from there will be plenty of pressure to fill the pump.

The priming problems happen when either 1) there's air trapped in the head with no natural way for it to flow out or 2) there inlet hose is allowing air to leak in and build up in the head.

I've also noticed that if I'm not getting the flow I think I should have, turning off the pump and letting the air in the pump rise out (and there is air in there) cures my ills when I turn it back on. If the pump head is horizontal, the air won't naturally rise out, possibly even if you had a bleeder valve.

 

[mtbruer]

OK, that makes sense. I'll reorient the pump head and get a tee and another ball valve for the bleeder.

One more question though, if the pump outlet is pointing up, I would think based on the mess I had with the horizontal position, that when you disconnect the outlet line you're going to dump whatever is in the line all over your pump.
How do you prevent that?

 

[foppa78]

Orienting the pump outlet upwards just allows any trapped air to escape, and you want it out of the head, downstream. Otherwise the pump will just suck it back up. If the pump is mounted even 6-8" below the vessel you're pumping from there will be plenty of pressure to fill the pump.

The priming problems happen when either 1) there's air trapped in the head with no natural way for it to flow out or 2) there inlet hose is allowing air to leak in and build up in the head.

I've also noticed that if I'm not getting the flow I think I should have, turning off the pump and letting the air in the pump rise out (and there is air in there) cures my ills when I turn it back on. If the pump head is horizontal, the air won't naturally rise out, possibly even if you had a bleeder valve.

So Lil Sparky does your liquid flow into the pump from the top or the bottom? I may be misreading your post.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

So Lil Sparky does your liquid flow into the pump from the top or the bottom? I may be misreading your post.

inlet down, outlet up - the point is to get any rising air into the outlet hose, not back into the inlet

 

[Lil' Sparky]

OK, that makes sense. I'll reorient the pump head and get a tee and another ball valve for the bleeder.

One more question though, if the pump outlet is pointing up, I would think based on the mess I had with the horizontal position, that when you disconnect the outlet line you're going to dump whatever is in the line all over your pump.
How do you prevent that?

Well, you'd have to see how I have the kettle returns done, but it's easier to say that it's not difficult to get a little empty space in the hose. This doesn't show the how the return's done inside the MLT, but here's a pic while I'm recirculating the mash. I had hardly any spillage. It may have to do with the fact that you have air in the input hose, which allows some of the liquid to flow back once the pump is off. I didn't think about it too much.

The only time was when I was pumping into the boil kettle through the bottom valve. When I disconnected a little bit dripped out. I brew outside on the driveway or patio, so it doesn't really bother me.

 

[foppa78]

inlet down, outlet up - the point is to get any rising air into the outlet hose, not back into the inlet

Cool. I am setup the opposite. I guess there are more than one way for this to work. With the T I have before the inlet the air rises and gets pushed through my bleed off valve before it even gets to the pump. It pumps like a champ. More than one way to skin a cat.

 

[The Pol]

I am building a manifold for the inlet and outlet of my pump, complete with two or three separate ball valves on each end. This will allow me to have all of my hoses attached at all times, no swapping hoses to do different transfers.

Inlet: HLT and Keggle

Outlet: Chiller, MLT, Drain (carboy)

This way I can just use different valve sequences to do transfers, no swapping hoses. I will orient my OUTLET upward and see how this affects my priming. My water levels will always be at least 1-2 feet above my pump inlet....