I don't know much about this method so I thought I would ask you all what your opinions are of it? I heard Jamil and John Palmer bring up the "fact" that they thought it had good and bad aspects to it. I'm just wondering what they are and what you all think about the process.
Pros and Cons of BIAB
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Single vessel BIAB has some major drawbacks (drawback being that you have fewer options for mash thickness and can run up against the capacity limit of your pot) related to full volume mashing (you need the full volume of your boil in the mash), but using a BIAB filter in a traditional cooler mash tun (2 vessel system is doable if you cold sparge) can eliminate these concerns entirely. Once you do that, the main drawback is related to a lack of a vourlaf and the resulting grain particulate that gets into your kettle. Which isn't that big of deal for most people's home setup unless you use counterflow or plate chillers.
My current system uses a BIAB filter for a cooler mash tun in a 2 vessel system, and I no-chill. I do full-volume no-sparge mashes for most brews that use 10lbs of grain or less, and regularly achive ~80% efficiency. Works well and simplifies my brew day.
My current system uses a BIAB filter for a cooler mash tun in a 2 vessel system, and I no-chill. I do full-volume no-sparge mashes for most brews that use 10lbs of grain or less, and regularly achive ~80% efficiency. Works well and simplifies my brew day.
beerinthebloodco
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You can work around the volume issue by mashing thicker and hanging your bag over the pot. You can then pour cooler water over the hanging bag to achieve a simple sparge. I usually follow up with a good squeeze and alway achieve my anticipated pretty boil and hit 80 % efficiency regularly
Singletrack
Because it's judgement that defeats us.
Most BIABers seem fairly neutral on the topic. Probably can't get them to express an opinion one way or the other. (ducks for cover)
meatcleaver
Well-Known Member
the big pro for me...no extra equipment to buy other than the bag.
instantly could do 5.5 gal partial mash & 1.5-3 gal all grain in my old 5 gallon canning pot
big con...difficult to control mash temps.
instantly could do 5.5 gal partial mash & 1.5-3 gal all grain in my old 5 gallon canning pot
big con...difficult to control mash temps.
Probably can't be bothered answering the same question again and again.
BIAB works the beer is as good as any other and just like the other procedures the final result depends largely on the brewers skills.
The main drawback as mentioned above is volume , you can get around it to some extent but if you want to brew 100-150 litre batches it will become difficult at the very least.
I'm not sure why a Home Brewer would want to brew such large amounts I know I don't want to spend all year drinking just one brew but if you did want to 3 vesle would be more suitable.
A lot of equipment bias seems to be based on the assumption that we need to ape commercial big brewers, that a real brewery is what they use so to be real brewers we need to it brew that way.
There are many reasons they use the equipment they do but probably the most significant is volume. When you're working with tens of thousands of litres a batch BIAB, GrainFather's and BM types are simply not practical.
Again BIAB works and works well but so do other systems so in the end it's "try it and see" which one you like using most.
Atb. Aamcle
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
Pros:
Simple and cheap.
Less equipment to clean and store.
Cons:
Can't mash one batch while the other is boiling (unless you have a second pot....so not really a con).
Cloudy wort (not really a con....doesn't affect the beer).
Neutral:
The quality of the finished beer (no better or worse than other systems).
You might have noticed there aren't any really convincing pros or cons. The reason is that there really aren't any. All that you're really looking at is a different mash filtering system/manifold/false bottom. I see a full-volume BIAB as being more similar to a full volume cooler mash tun than it is to a BIAB with a dunk sparge. Choose whatever suits you - your beer will be equally as good (there are other parts of the process that are far more important). I use mostly a three vessel HERMS (it was fun to set up....that's the main reason why) and sometimes a BIAB system. The beer is indistinguishable.
Simple and cheap.
Less equipment to clean and store.
Cons:
Can't mash one batch while the other is boiling (unless you have a second pot....so not really a con).
Cloudy wort (not really a con....doesn't affect the beer).
Neutral:
The quality of the finished beer (no better or worse than other systems).
You might have noticed there aren't any really convincing pros or cons. The reason is that there really aren't any. All that you're really looking at is a different mash filtering system/manifold/false bottom. I see a full-volume BIAB as being more similar to a full volume cooler mash tun than it is to a BIAB with a dunk sparge. Choose whatever suits you - your beer will be equally as good (there are other parts of the process that are far more important). I use mostly a three vessel HERMS (it was fun to set up....that's the main reason why) and sometimes a BIAB system. The beer is indistinguishable.
pmonti80
Active Member
Being a stovetop BIAB brewer myself, the only real problem I find is that it is difficult for me to control mash temperatures.
A year or so ago I listened to a lot of Brewstrong. The one where I heard them talking about BIAB was several years old, so they were commenting on the state and perception of BIAB brewing when it was pretty new and there wasn't nearly as much data as we have now. I recall thinking that the episode would have played a lot differently if it were recorded today.
BIAB makes great beer with minimal equipment. The only con that I've experienced is that you need double the equipment or take a really long brewday to do two batches in one day, while a multiple-vessel system could get away with mashing the second batch while the first one is boiling, making it better for streamlining multiple-batch brewdays largely because it is already double the equipment or more compared to most BIAB setups.
Then again, the one time I did a double-batch brewday I just borrowed a buddy's kettle and bag and just staggered the batches by half an hour so the second batch would finish boiling while the first was using the chiller. Great thing about Chinese gas stovetops is that they pack enough punch to boil two 8-gallon (pre-boil) batches at once.
BIAB makes great beer with minimal equipment. The only con that I've experienced is that you need double the equipment or take a really long brewday to do two batches in one day, while a multiple-vessel system could get away with mashing the second batch while the first one is boiling, making it better for streamlining multiple-batch brewdays largely because it is already double the equipment or more compared to most BIAB setups.
Then again, the one time I did a double-batch brewday I just borrowed a buddy's kettle and bag and just staggered the batches by half an hour so the second batch would finish boiling while the first was using the chiller. Great thing about Chinese gas stovetops is that they pack enough punch to boil two 8-gallon (pre-boil) batches at once.
McKnuckle
Well-Known Member
BIAB in its purest form is a single vessel, no sparge, full volume mash method. In that respect, the volume concern is real - but is only an issue for people who scale way up. The standard 5 gallon batch is not challenged by this aspect. And, it's often a pro because a nice full mash vessel holds its temp better than one with lots of headspace.
In traditional brewing, we separate the liquid wort from the grains, leaving the grain behind, which is then discarded. Since the liquid has to flow into something else, this necessitates a second vessel.
In BIAB, we remove the grain from the liquid wort and discard it, leaving the wort behind. A second vessel can be used for sparging, but is entirely optional.
Therefore the bag is just a type of filter - like a manifold or false bottom. It's not an entirely new concept of how to brew beer. Brewers make far too much of it, really!
BIAB is an inherently simple method from an equipment perspective, which challenges the mindset of some brewers who equate elaborate systems with serious brewing. (Or perhaps they just enjoy the system building part and prefer a process with more fiddling - which is perfectly fine.)
Like any method that diverges from tradition, BIAB suffers from the perpetuation of concerns left over from its early trials and adoption period. Like any system, it's a system that needs to be learned and tweaked, but it's easy to dial in and not substantively different from any other AG method in that regard.
(Did we mention simple, cheap, and easier to clean?! Oh... and equally good beer, too!)
In traditional brewing, we separate the liquid wort from the grains, leaving the grain behind, which is then discarded. Since the liquid has to flow into something else, this necessitates a second vessel.
In BIAB, we remove the grain from the liquid wort and discard it, leaving the wort behind. A second vessel can be used for sparging, but is entirely optional.
Therefore the bag is just a type of filter - like a manifold or false bottom. It's not an entirely new concept of how to brew beer. Brewers make far too much of it, really!
BIAB is an inherently simple method from an equipment perspective, which challenges the mindset of some brewers who equate elaborate systems with serious brewing. (Or perhaps they just enjoy the system building part and prefer a process with more fiddling - which is perfectly fine.)
Like any method that diverges from tradition, BIAB suffers from the perpetuation of concerns left over from its early trials and adoption period. Like any system, it's a system that needs to be learned and tweaked, but it's easy to dial in and not substantively different from any other AG method in that regard.
(Did we mention simple, cheap, and easier to clean?! Oh... and equally good beer, too!)
evchenko
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Try putting it in a preheated oven, I found I could keep it in a decent ballpark.
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I'm still a newbie (been brewing about a year) and started with extract kits. Have done only 2 all grains so far, using BIAB. The advantage for me was that I was a little intimidated by the prospect of trying all grain brewing but found BIAB to be very simple to do. Plus, I was thrilled with the way both beers came out. In fact, they were much much better than the extract ones. So, for me BIAB has been a very "user friendly" way to do all grain.
filthyastronaut
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I don't have any kind of pulley system and I mashed on the stovetop, so I'd say the most cumbersome aspect of BIAB was the lifting itself for me. Makes it quite difficult to drain and squeeze and so forth. Also, it can be quite difficult to hold your mash temp in a kettle, at least it was for me. The biggest pro is the simplicity, cheapness, and the ability to not have to worry about sticky grain bills.
To get around my own problems with it, I've started using by old bottling bucket as a mash tun and I lauter with the spigot. The bag essentially functions as a false bottom. I simply drain into my kettle, add sparge water and stir, wait ten minutes, and collect enough wort for my boil volume. Gets me ~80 percent efficiency and it has all of the benefits of normal BIAB. I would recommend something like this to a new all-grain brewer on a budget over BIAB, personally.
To get around my own problems with it, I've started using by old bottling bucket as a mash tun and I lauter with the spigot. The bag essentially functions as a false bottom. I simply drain into my kettle, add sparge water and stir, wait ten minutes, and collect enough wort for my boil volume. Gets me ~80 percent efficiency and it has all of the benefits of normal BIAB. I would recommend something like this to a new all-grain brewer on a budget over BIAB, personally.
For those that are having trouble holding thier mash temps with BIAB, I highly reccomend a good sleeping bag for insulation or some other form of high quality insulation.
I just got into all grain via biab and I've been only losing 1°, maybe 2° over a 90 minute mash with my sleeping bag I already owned.
I don't open the pot for any reason until the end to help keep heat in, then a big stir and mash out at the end and I'm getting 85% efficiency with a double crush from my LHBS.
I just got into all grain via biab and I've been only losing 1°, maybe 2° over a 90 minute mash with my sleeping bag I already owned.
I don't open the pot for any reason until the end to help keep heat in, then a big stir and mash out at the end and I'm getting 85% efficiency with a double crush from my LHBS.
my method for keeping temps stable-ish. Turn off the burner when I get to strike temp, and take the pot aside while I dough in. then I move the pot back to the burner set to low (power lvl 1) on my electric cook top. It does a very good job of keeping my temps pretty stable that way. 11.3 litre full volume mash, generally using 16 litres or so of strike water.
The only drawbacks I can think of are related to the weight of the grainbag and the limitations due to volume.
I brew 10 gallon sized batches. I have a traditional MLT with a tippy dump. There is no way I could lift a bag full of 25 pounds of wet grain, because the grain absorbs water as well and would make it even heavier. Since I brew indoors in my laundry room, I can't do a pulley system. My BK is a 15 gallon converted keg- no way I could use my 15 gallons of mash/sparge water and grain in that vessel!
If I was doing small batches, I would probably go with a BIAB system.
I brew 10 gallon sized batches. I have a traditional MLT with a tippy dump. There is no way I could lift a bag full of 25 pounds of wet grain, because the grain absorbs water as well and would make it even heavier. Since I brew indoors in my laundry room, I can't do a pulley system. My BK is a 15 gallon converted keg- no way I could use my 15 gallons of mash/sparge water and grain in that vessel!
If I was doing small batches, I would probably go with a BIAB system.
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^^ 10gal for the win.
I know it is a fair amount of beer that not everybody wants or needs, but it really doesn't last that long if you have friends and family helping themselves. It gives you some flexibility and control over your pipeline, for a small incremental time investment. For example, if I start getting low on brew, I just stop handing it out to guests, which will leave plenty for me to enjoy until the coffers are up to "sharing" levels again.
BlurryEyed
Well-Known Member
Love BIAB! But I will be going to a single-tier system when I move. Too limited on space in my current home.
From my experience on 12+ batches now of BIAB:
-You need a 10 gal+ kettle to brew 5.5 gallon batches
-The bag is not fun to clean - I think a cooler would actually be easier IMO
-I get a lot of trub in the bottom of the kettle/fermentor, hence 5.5gal final volume batches
-I have to double-mill my grains to maintain 70% efficiency
I don't have trouble with mash temps. I use a camp stove 60,000 BTU. I keep the lid on and kick the burner on for a couple minutes if the temp drops and then I mashout to 160 occasionally. Not perfect, but not hard either.
I reemphasize the 10gal+ kettle. Typical water requirements are 8-9gal for what I usually brew (Pale Ales & IPAs) with up to 13lbs of grain. My 10gal kettle is usually at the brim when douging in, so much that I have to dough in slowly to ensure it doesn't overflow. No sparge, just thinner mashes here around 1.5-1.75 qt/lb.
Got the space? Jump on board with the Brewers Buddy and go with a tiered brewing system!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1100391693/brewers-buddy-your-best-friend-in-brewing
Sorry - had to plug that product as I really want it to get funded for my own gain hahaha
From my experience on 12+ batches now of BIAB:
-You need a 10 gal+ kettle to brew 5.5 gallon batches
-The bag is not fun to clean - I think a cooler would actually be easier IMO
-I get a lot of trub in the bottom of the kettle/fermentor, hence 5.5gal final volume batches
-I have to double-mill my grains to maintain 70% efficiency
I don't have trouble with mash temps. I use a camp stove 60,000 BTU. I keep the lid on and kick the burner on for a couple minutes if the temp drops and then I mashout to 160 occasionally. Not perfect, but not hard either.
I reemphasize the 10gal+ kettle. Typical water requirements are 8-9gal for what I usually brew (Pale Ales & IPAs) with up to 13lbs of grain. My 10gal kettle is usually at the brim when douging in, so much that I have to dough in slowly to ensure it doesn't overflow. No sparge, just thinner mashes here around 1.5-1.75 qt/lb.
Got the space? Jump on board with the Brewers Buddy and go with a tiered brewing system!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1100391693/brewers-buddy-your-best-friend-in-brewing
Sorry - had to plug that product as I really want it to get funded for my own gain hahaha
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JONNYROTTEN
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My only issue is with mash temp.Not because of insulation but because the water on the outside of the bag gets warmer than the water/grain inside the bag.I brew electric and to do a lot of stirring.Not that it bothers me to stir but it is an issue.I made a hoist for cheap that works great and eliminates any lifting issues.Im loving my EBIAB setup..Hassle free easy brew day.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
The bag is open in the basket,the basket in the pot. The water on the outside of the bag/basket is warmer than inside the basket.I tried to recirculate with that small Chinese pump but even kinking the hose the water starts to rise in the bag and lower outside the bag.I gave up on that and just stir the grain
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
Okay, I'm only being a tad bit sarcastic with this, and I don't know why more people don't do this, but on several of my early batches with no real equipment, I used two bags. You want to do 10 gallons without a pulley, use two or more bags to mash in. Simple. Works. Grain doesn't care or get lonely being separated from other grain. I've done it several times. It likely is easier/better than one bag and a pulley, but I've not yet convinced the world of it.
I then went to the curtain in the 48 quart rectangular cooler ($30 total investment here people), and not only can you still vorlauf (assuming you have a valve or stopper in the bottom) you can stir the bed multiple times as well increasing efficiency (which in all practical purposes takes the place of a continuous sparge). And rice hulls are never needed as a tug on the fabric frees a stuck sparge.
Now I have a recirculating homemade eBIAB with an element and a PID and my beers are vastly better (partially because of my increasing experience too) than with the cooler. I use a bag and a pulley. I haven't yet but the system is capable of 10 gallon batches of "normal" gravity beers. in a 15.5 gallon keg.. If I run out of room for a "big beer" I'm not proud enough not to use DME/LME to finish it off. Minor issue with volume IMHO.
The biggest advantages are much less occupied space of the equipment, less cleaning. One PID. One Pump. For me getting the grains to my chickens is easier and I can drain more water off of the grains first. You can grind somewhat finer (and NO! it doesn't increase tannin extraction with proper pH management. Look up HEBS commercial systems if you don't believe that) and you NEVER.. NEVER have to use rice hulls. When you get a stuck sparge, you just tug the bag (or curtain) and it starts running again, even on the stickiest of mashes.
I fully believe in 10 years that a filter in a mashing system will be the norm and not the exception. I have never run less than 80% efficiency on my 1.070's or less on BIAB and likely I never will.
I'd argue that a cheaper mill is okay with BIAB and less so with traditional methods because of inconsistent grind sizes but that's getting off on a tangent.
There are really no downsides to BIAB. In the end it produces equal quality beer. It's less expensive for a noob to do, especially for 3 gallon or less sizes.. it's "real all grain" or whatever that means...
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
The bag is not fun to clean? Okay.. well. Once I get the boil on and get the chickens fed (and some refrigerated for other days for the chickens), I shake the bag out, turn it inside out, do that again, hose it off, do it again, and then turn it inside out once more, hose it out, shake it again. The grains are all gone by then. Soak in a sink full of PBW and then rinse in a sink full of water. Clean. It's no worse than anything else cleaning beer related. I was actually surprised how easy it was. It's also on the pre-boil side so you don't have to go nuts on it either...
Well this sucks....I was expecting to s see CONvicts in jail doing BIAB....what a rip off
slym2none
"Lazy extract brewer."
BlurryEyed
Well-Known Member
Brewers buddy is 3 tier with 3x20" burners. They are trying to give the modified King cooker the boot
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BlurryEyed
Well-Known Member
Yep all the things I hate doing. Cooler: rinse, empty, soap, rinse - Done
Murphys_Law
Well-Known Member
I do BIAB. I've made really good beers, decent beers and a few I think should be really good if I want to boil some ribs before throwing them on the grill.
My biggest con is when I see pictures of set ups with all the hoses and pumps and crap...man, that looks really cool! I'm being serious - it does!
I make beer - in 5 gal batches, for me, friends and family and we're all pleased with the results. I really don't have any plans on going more than 1 vessel and an easy to clean bag.
I'm sure a good Brewer can make beer with extract better than I do with all-grain BIAB and I make better beer than a crappy Brewer with a "traditional" set-up.
The pro and/or con largely rests with the Brewer, IMHO.
My biggest con is when I see pictures of set ups with all the hoses and pumps and crap...man, that looks really cool! I'm being serious - it does!
I make beer - in 5 gal batches, for me, friends and family and we're all pleased with the results. I really don't have any plans on going more than 1 vessel and an easy to clean bag.
I'm sure a good Brewer can make beer with extract better than I do with all-grain BIAB and I make better beer than a crappy Brewer with a "traditional" set-up.
The pro and/or con largely rests with the Brewer, IMHO.
One issue is that sparging options are more limited. Eventually I would like to incorporate a wort grant to monitor my runoff while sparging via densitometer. Other then that not too many cons IMO. The pro of having 1 vessel is very attractive and I wouldn't mind having an eBIAB setup for 2.5 - 5 gallon batches and a 3 vessel for 10-20 gallon batches. I'm sure SWMBO would loooove that 
Singletrack
Because it's judgement that defeats us.
Yes, but remember that some of us (me) brew 10 gallon batches indoors. No WAY do I want to deal with bags of hot heavy wet grain.
I think it's really important to recognize that we all have different ideas on what works for us, and multiple bags of wet grain, or a pulley system with one big bag of grain, may not work inside my laundry room.
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
Okay. I will reiterate what I said before, understanding you don't want to do it but others might.
Use smaller bags. Multiples of them. When you transfer them have a bucket nearby to put them in. Yeah, you will probably spill a little on the floor, but not much.
This is how I did 5 gallon batches for awhile and I am still amazed the bag manufacturers haven't come up with a multiple bag solution.
I suppose for most the pulley is easier. I do >5 gallon batches (usually 6 to 7) indoors but not 10. I am really the only person who consumes in my house and I'm pretty bad about bottling the excess and giving it away. Having said that.. I think I could do a 10 gallon batch completely all grain if I wanted, and if not, it would be so close that it would be a >75% AG partial mash.
I do did a pulley eventually, kicking and screaming but I would also like to handle 13 lbs of grain differently.. I suppose you are doing 20-25, which the bags can handle.. but it does kinda suck shlepping those at 170F. One thing that helps for the group is getting silicon hot pad gloves. Then it's far safer.
The point is, for someone building up a new system from scratch, you can get one vessel going this way and decide if you want to spend 3x as much for the other two vessels... even if "going big".
Use smaller bags. Multiples of them. When you transfer them have a bucket nearby to put them in. Yeah, you will probably spill a little on the floor, but not much.
This is how I did 5 gallon batches for awhile and I am still amazed the bag manufacturers haven't come up with a multiple bag solution.
I suppose for most the pulley is easier. I do >5 gallon batches (usually 6 to 7) indoors but not 10. I am really the only person who consumes in my house and I'm pretty bad about bottling the excess and giving it away. Having said that.. I think I could do a 10 gallon batch completely all grain if I wanted, and if not, it would be so close that it would be a >75% AG partial mash.
I do did a pulley eventually, kicking and screaming but I would also like to handle 13 lbs of grain differently.. I suppose you are doing 20-25, which the bags can handle.. but it does kinda suck shlepping those at 170F. One thing that helps for the group is getting silicon hot pad gloves. Then it's far safer.
The point is, for someone building up a new system from scratch, you can get one vessel going this way and decide if you want to spend 3x as much for the other two vessels... even if "going big".
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
I usually skip the soap. Sometime on darker mashes (stout) it is needed unless you want to bag to be a little yellowed.
Really you get 90% of it off by wetting the bag and shaking. I still think it's easier than washing out the cooler.I should add it took me 10x as long to type that in than it does to do it on the bag.
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
I have a pump and hoses on my eBIAB setup. Since I use and element and a PID and didn't insulate I recirculate to keep the temperature from stratifying. You can toy up your system even with BIAB! Cheers!
Pro: small amount of equipment needed.
Con: Heavy, hot, sticky, mess....... Unless you make a rig to lift the bag. Or make really small batches.
Con: Heavy, hot, sticky, mess....... Unless you make a rig to lift the bag. Or make really small batches.
Murphys_Law
Well-Known Member
I have been toying with going eBIAB. I already have a pump that I bought for if/when I make the move. I also have 220v running to my spa and am thinking of switching the panel to add an outlet. Just not sure I want to spend the money or time right now...but sooner or later...!
Murphys_Law
Well-Known Member
I made a rig out of threaded 1/2" black pipe from HD. Cost ~$60. I'd go galvanized if I did it again, though.
I lift the bag and let it drain while I start the boil and since the pipe is threaded it's very easy to swing the arm over the pot and lower into a homer bucket. It also gives me a "storage arm" to hang bottles, spoons, lid, etc.
And it breaks down for easy storage.
One important note though: move the damn bucket AWAY FROM THE FIRE! I had a "blonde" moment and left it there when I lit the flame so if anyone needs a slightly melted bucket let me know
.View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1459873966.445382.jpg
dstockwell
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I do 3.25G BIAB because of the ease, one vessel, no sparge, easy cleanup. I just accept 65% Brew House efficiency and adjust recipe for it. No where for a pulley system so no big deal. 3G bottled gives me a wide variety in the pipeline.
I made a rig out of threaded 1/2" black pipe from HD. Cost ~$60. I'd go galvanized if I did it again, though.
I lift the bag and let it drain while I start the boil and since the pipe is threaded it's very easy to swing the arm over the pot and lower into a homer bucket. It also gives me a "storage arm" to hang bottles, spoons, lid, etc.
And it breaks down for easy storage.
One important note though: move the damn bucket AWAY FROM THE FIRE! I had a "blonde" moment and left it there when I lit the flame so if anyone needs a slightly melted bucket let me know
View attachment 349013
Murphy, great idea, what does the bottom of the stand look like? Any chance of getting some close up pictures of the stand?
Thanks
