Propane indoors

[william_shakes_beer]

We all know that using a propane burner indoors without proper ventilation is a recipie for death by suffocation due to buildup of CO in the blood that prevents uptake of oxygen. Nuf said.

When I was growing up my family did most of the household cooking on a gas stove without a hood and with no exhaust collection whatsoever.

What makes a propane burner dangerous but not a natural gas stove?

Is it the volume of gas being burned to boil 5 gallons? A fundamental difference between natural gas and propane? something else?

 

[yeahfairly]

I may be totally wrong here (and if I am I know someone will chime in and correct me...lol) but it's not the fuel source... it's the burner. Not all Propane burners are dangerous indoors. Burners designed for indoor Nat Gas and Propane are much cleaner burning. Think of RV's... some of them have propane stoves and ovens in them as well as propane heat. Turkey Fryers, gas grills and the vast majority of the burners available to Home Brewers are designed strictly for outdoor use.

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

depends on what you mean by "indoors". In the garage with the door open is ok, but in the kitchen, not a good idea.

 

[Hello]

I may be totally wrong here (and if I am I know someone will chime in and correct me...lol) but it's not the fuel source... it's the burner. Not all Propane burners are dangerous indoors. Burners designed for indoor Nat Gas and Propane are much cleaner burning. Think of RV's... some of them have propane stoves and ovens in them as well as propane heat. Turkey Fryers, gas grills and the vast majority of the burners available to Home Brewers are designed strictly for outdoor use.

This was my initial thought, mostly. I thought it was the burner and how the gas come through it. I just don't know exactly what separates a turkey fryer burner from a stove burner.

 

[BigEd]

We all know that using a propane burner indoors without proper ventilation is a recipie for death by suffocation due to buildup of CO in the blood that prevents uptake of oxygen. Nuf said.

When I was growing up my family did most of the household cooking on a gas stove without a hood and with no exhaust collection whatsoever.

What makes a propane burner dangerous but not a natural gas stove?

Is it the volume of gas being burned to boil 5 gallons? A fundamental difference between natural gas and propane? something else?

If you're looking for a reason or justification for using an outdoor burner inside just make sure your insurance is paid up first. The burners on a kitchen range are much lower in output and burn at lower pressure than outdoor burners, maybe 9000-12000 BTU compared to 50,00-150,00 BTU. Most of the outdoor burners do not burn gas as cleanly or efficiently as stove burners either creating larger ratios of CO to CO2. Essentially you have quantities of heat and combustion products that are way in excess of what can be safely contained within a typical house.

 

[trussell]

FIRST HAVING A PROPANE CYLINDER (bbq tank) IN A CLOSED BUILDING IS DANGEROUS. In the cylinder is LPG Liquefied petroleum gas, if there is a release from the safety valve it can quickly fill an enclosed space with flammable gas. NOT GOOD

Keep the gas outside or in the garage with good ventilation. I brew in the garage with burners no problems. Haven't done in it really cold weather however.


The burners on a stove a low pressure Nat Gas or Propane maybe in general usage 10-20K BTU on all burners and not being run for a very long time. Yes someone who cooks might have 2 or 3 pots simmering but then the burners are on low and kicking out only 1-2K BTU. The burners for brewing and turkey frying are high pressure high volume. 75-100K BTU and your running them for hours when you include heating mash and sparge water then reaching and maintaining a boil. The amount of time and the volume of gas makes a CO buildup a huge risk.

 

[Shred]

Agreed with the others that it's the device, not the gas. We have done experiments in my garage using a CO detector. With the bay door closed and just 1 burner going, it reaches dangerous levels very quickly. With the bay door cracked (leaving a large gap a the top and small gap at the bottom) the CO detector reads 0.

That said, we have a ventless space heater that also runs on propane. It's a powerful SOB too. My uninsulated garage is kept at t-shirt temps in the dead of winter in New England. That heater produces 0 CO and the detector has verified this.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

So it sounds like the consensus is the high pressure regulator that allows my banjo burner to bring 5 gallons to a boil in 20 minutes is also putting out co at rates that exceed most indoor environmental leakage rates. FWIW I classify brewing in a garage with the door open as outdoors for the purpose of ventilation.

trussel,Big ed: I understand the dangers of possible propane leakage in an indoor environment. Please be assured I have no plans to do this, just asking as a scholarly exercise. Thank You for your concerns regarding my safety and homeowner's insurance.

 

[yeahfairly]

I always Brew in my garage..... There are a lot less things flying around in the air to land in my brew pot!

I have felt like I was losing consciousness a few times but I always figured it was the result of excess beer consumption as opposed to excess CO2!

 

[732Brewer]

Best thing would be to have a window fan pushing air out so you know the fumes are leaving the building. Also a carbon dioxide detector would be something I would be using, and test it to make sure it works (put it next to the burner and it should go off). Don't mess with your health people ...this stuff can kill you.

 

[TexasWine]

So it sounds like the consensus is the high pressure regulator that allows my banjo burner to bring 5 gallons to a boil in 20 minutes is also putting out co at rates that exceed most indoor environmental leakage rates. FWIW I classify brewing in a garage with the door open as outdoors for the purpose of ventilation.

In general, I think this is correct. CO is a byproduct of incomplete combustion, whereas in contrast the only byproducts of complete combustion of a pure hydrocarbon are CO2 and water. One thing is for sure, you'll never have complete combustion and will always be making some amount of CO.

I know you didn't ask this, but in my mind what has yet to be answered is what is it that causes the outdoor rated burners to produce CO at a level that's dangerous when compared to indoor burners. Is it simply because the outdoor burners generate a lot of BTUs? I don't think that's the answer.

Many home cook tops, including my own, can pump out as many BTUs as many outdoor burners (note I would need to turn on multiple burners to accomplish this). I'm looking at one on the interwebs right now that has seven 15,000 BTU/hr burners and one 18,500 BTU/hr burner. Commercial versions in restaurants I'm sure can exceed the output of an outdoor burner, probably by several fold when you consider they run many burners simultaneously.

My guess is that it's an efficiency thing. In my industry we deal with fired heaters that are rated in millions of BTU/hour. The project I'm on right now has two heaters rated for about 25 million BTU/hr each, and those are small heaters. The heater design, and especially the design of the burner tips, determines how efficiently the heater burns the fuel (natural gas for my project) and it also determines other things like the quantity of pollutants produced. The less efficient a heater is at burning the fuel the more CO, NOx, SOx, etc., that you're going to produce.

Bottom line, what I'm trying to say is that if you found a high BTU burner with a correspondingly high efficiency, then you might not have any issues with CO. But, you'll never find a situation where CO is not produced.

Hope all this rambling adds something to the discussion.

 

[solbes]

Theres got to be better ways to brew indoors than using propane. High wattage induction plate (~ 3500 w) will be my choice if I ever build a brew room at the cabin (with a hood to vent steam) Brewing is a fun hobby, but is not worth risking it indoors.

I think the difference between a brew propane burner and a natural gas stove is related to output and the amount of CO released. I don't believe the propane burners are designed to reduce CO output, as they are meant only to be used outdoors (or carefully in a garage space).

 

[william_shakes_beer]

Understand the above. When I was designing commerical kitchens we always included a fume hood over the gas burners. It was for grease control but I'm sure exhausting co was also a side benefit.

I asked the question because I was curious as to what it might take to create a safe indoor brew setup using gas. I have propane in an outdoor tank that *could* be tapped either upstream or downstream of the regulator to provide fuel safely. I suspect the cost of a high effeciency burner plus mechanically providing combustion air (and exhaust?) makes electric less expensive. It just eats at me that I pay for 350 gallons of propane that sits outdoors all summer and then turn around and buy more for brewing. (or perhaps the only difference between indoor and outdoor burners is the safety certifications)

 

[dan6310]

Also be aware that propane gas is heavier than air and will sink and pool in areas of a basement. If there is a leak on your set-up in your basement, it will be difficult to exhaust and detect until the levels were unsafe.
Natural gas is lighter than air and be quicker to detect a leak.


Dan6310

 

[732Brewer]

Natural gas, inside. Propane outside, unless there is a fan circulating air outside. Setup the fan an spray some air freshner inside and see if it goes outside. As long as the propane is exhausting, your good. If you opened your garage, and used a box fan, you can seal off the opening around the fan with a few sheets of wood.

 

[TexasWine]

Natural gas, inside. Propane outside

I don't think we can make blanket statements like that. Remeber that countless droves of people use propane indoors for cooking and heating. As an example, pretty much every home back where I grew up has multiples of these running with propane. I'm headed back there in a couple of weeks and I'm sure I'll back my rear end right up to one at my grandparents.

http://www.kotulas.com/deals/Produc...g+%3e+Fireplace+%26+Heaters&utm_content=19857

Also I've been in multiple enclosed spaces that use these for heating, propane again, and they have no venting requirements.

http://m.northerntool.com/shop/tool...BpnTuXPe6S1Y3PpEomMmj1zZGIijgImk0oaAkod8P8HAQ

Yes, I agree propane is dangerous. No, I don't think we should start using outdoor rated burners indoors. But as with anything, such as driving an automobile at 70 mph down the interstate, if you take the proper precautions it can be relatively safe and provide a benefit.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

As I said in my post above, my home heating system runs off a 350 gallon bottle of propane. Not natural gas.

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

I brew in the garage with the door open and the propane tank outside. I know from building that use of propane for any temporary appliance is completely illegal and the building inspector or fire marshal will shut you down if caught. BTW, if you set your house on fire, doing something illegal, your insurance company, probably will not pay. That would be an expensive batch.

 

[trussell]

Theres got to be better ways to brew indoors than using propane. High wattage induction plate (~ 3500 w) will be my choice if I ever build a brew room at the cabin (with a hood to vent steam) Brewing is a fun hobby, but is not worth risking it indoors.

I moved indoors using an Avantco IC 3500. Works well but they do concentrate the heating in a area 6-7" across so boil kettle should be triple bottom to spread the heat. I used a single bottom kettle once to boil and got scorch ring. Beer turned out ok.