Problems with Whirlpool Recirculation

[Grannyknot]

Last Friday I attempted my first pump driven whirlpool & recirculation.
My set-up is pretty simple. Kettle -> Chugger Pump -> Duda Diesel Plate Chiller -> back to Kettle or fermenter.
Everything was going well. With about 5 minutes left in the boil, I started circulating the hot wort to sanitize the plumbing. Got a pretty decent whirlpool going. Cut the burner off, and turned the water on. Rapidly chilled to 180 in about 30 seconds. Turned the water off. Added my whirlpool hops. Let the whirlpool sit at 180ish for about 15 minutes. Turned the water back on to bring down to pitching temps. Then the problems started. A massive amount of cold break was being generated, which didn't really settle to the bottom like the hops & hot break did. Instead it stayed suspended during the whirlpool and got picked up & recirculated, which eventually clogged the plate chiller, brought the recirculation to a near trickle, & stopped the whirlpool, which made me loose the cone at the bottom of the kettle. From there, it took a very long time to chill to pitching temps.

A friend suggested a false bottom in the kettle, but I have a hard time believing a false bottom wouldn't have been clogged by all the hops & break. And on top of that, I see kettle set ups all the time that have a whirlpool function yet don't use a false bottom.

Have I done something wrong in my process, or is this the reason people use counterflow chillers?

Here is my pick up...

 

[brick_haus]

I have experienced that before. This was my solution.

I'm kind of self taught so my methods might be somewhat unorthodox...but I whirlpool kettle/pump/kettle. Then after the whirlpool, I transfer the wort to the fermentor - kettle/pump/plate chiller/2nd pump/imersion chiller submerged in ice water/fermentor. This will get my wort to 60*F and I'm ready to pitch.
Lots of cold break in the fermentor, but i get GREAT fermentations.

 

[Grannyknot]

Interesting.
So you don't use your plate chiller to bring your wort down to 180* for a whirlpool hop addition?

 

[Auger]

Maybe not applicable to your situation, but this is exactly what's been keeping me using my immersion chiller vs. switching to a plate chiller.

 

[brick_haus]

Interesting.
So you don't use your plate chiller to bring your wort down to 180* for a whirlpool hop addition?

No, I add hops at flameout. Like I said, I'm self taught. I really like my results though.

 

[RJS]

Ya, going back to immersion chiller whirlpooling for me, than into the plate chiller to knock down the rest of the way, after ive achieved bright and clear wort.

In the little research ive done, pro's whirlpool hot and let stand for 30 min to an hour before going to fermentor. Or, they have centrifuge system. I cant wait that long since i brew multiple batches alone in a brew day, but im not going to sacrifice quality to go faster either, so there has to be a balance. I think the recirc from BK to plate into BK is a misleading path for the whirlpool.

For my whirlpool hopping, i dont turn off the water to the IC, since an IC in 20 gallons of wort takes forever.

I think my upgrade is not relying on a plate chiller alone, but using both an immersion chiller effectively with a plate chiller. Synergy

 

[beerisking]

Still do it old school-add last hop addition, kill heat, whirlpool with giant spoon for 10-15 minutes and let sit for 20 minutes with cover on, then attach CFC and open valve all the way. 65*F wort in 6-7 minutes. I don't use and filter or anything. The trub that gets through settles out in the fermenter and left behind in a week.

 

[Grannyknot]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Just to be clear, nobody has experience with a pump driven whirlpool that uses a plate chiller to do a 180* hop stand?

 

[RJS]

have you seen this? A good read IMO.

http://homebrewacademy.com/plate-chiller-methods

All the information out there is kind of exhausting though. Trial and error for your system and yours alone is going to get you the best results in the end.

Stuck chiller? probably whirlpool longer, hot, then run off into chiller after a good rest.

get back to making clear wort is the bottom line, and with new equipment that usually takes a few batches to get under control.

 

[Grannyknot]

have you seen this? A good read IMO.

http://homebrewacademy.com/plate-chiller-methods

All the information out there is kind of exhausting though. Trial and error for your system and yours alone is going to get you the best results in the end.

Stuck chiller? probably whirlpool longer, hot, then run off into chiller after a good rest.

get back to making clear wort is the bottom line, and with new equipment that usually takes a few batches to get under control.

Thanks for the link. Good reading for my lunch break.

 

[eric19312]

I think the issue is you are recirculating from the plate chiller back to the kettle after the hop stand, bringing entire bulk to pitching temps before transfer to fermenter.

Why not go direct from the kettle to the fermenter at end of hop stand? You may need to go slower than full on to get to pitching temp in one pass but probably not all that slow. You might have to adjust the time of your hop stand since some of the wort will be standing longer than the rest.

If you care to remove the cold break you could pump up into a carboy, allow to settle - probably 30-60 min, then siphon to fermentor, oxygenate and pitch. This would add about an hour to your brew day. Personally I'd just take the cold break into the fermenter.

 

[alexc2013]

I've got the same set up BK, pump, plate chiller, inlet at top of BK, and have had very few problems with whirpools, hopstands, chilling in general.

Two things make a huge difference in preventing clogged flow - hop spider with mesh bag and a bazooka type filter on the pick up tube.

The time that I did not use the mesh/strainer bags for the spider I had a ridiculously stuck drain. There was a good inch thick cake of hop debris coating the bazooka filter, which effectively clogged it. That brew day I had to lift the Keggle and pour the roughly 160F wort into the fermenter. Very big mess.

I've never had any problems with a clogged plate chiller though. I use a pond pump (~$40) in a 5 gal bucket to circulate starsan through the plate chiller and back into the bucket for about 10 minutes during the boil. I disconnect the pump, let the tubing and chiller drain and then hook up the tubing to the BK. For clean up I pump the same sanitizer through the plate chiller. works great.

 

[RJS]

Im set with my new chiller by just hot whirlpooling and a ten minute rest then into plate. Im getting very good results.

Now i see the benefit of the plate chiller and def dont need my immersion chiller. All the research i did for recirc using the plate chiller and pump also seems like it doesnt make sense. Too much time recirculating when the hot whirlpool works great.

 

[ndinh]

Agree with the above posts. Your issue stems from whirlpooling with the plate chiller. Since you haven't built a good hop cone yet, your plate chiller will slowly collect cold breaks and residual hops. IMO, plate chillers alone aren't ideal when used with whirlpooling unless you're using some sort of filter. If you're adamant about quickly cooling your wort to 180F (or 160F), you should use an IC first while whirlpooling, then run your wort through a plate chiller to fermenter to drop it down to pitching temp. I've done it this way and now I just whirlpool hot for 30min and then run my wort through my CFC directly to fermenter. Honestly, I can't tell the difference in the beer quality.

 

[RJS]

Looks like we both came to the same conclusion. I tried the whole IC cool down and then plate chiller into FV, lame, not worth it.

 

[schematix]

I am a long time BK -> plate chiller -> BK recirculation advocate, but the process is ripe for error.

The key is the amount of hops you use. In my system, if i freeball more than 4 oz hops for 10G I will end up plugging the chiller. So the solution is to either use a hop spider (which i've given up), hop bags, or save your excess hops for the fermenter. Most of my recipes i formulate now to stay under 4oz of hops in the kettle so i don't have issues. For all styles except PA/APA/IPA/IIPA this presents absolutely no issue.

 

[Grannyknot]

I ended up installing a 12" bazooka tube in sort of an unorthodox way.
It has helped my original issue quite a bit.

 

[Natdavis777]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Just to be clear, nobody has experience with a pump driven whirlpool that uses a plate chiller to do a 180* hop stand?

I utilize this method, though I have had to refine it. I kettle>pump>plate chiller>kettle and chill my batch as a whole before transferring to the fermenters. If doing a hopstand, I do as you did. Cut it @ 180F, drop in the hops and continue the whirlpool. **During the hopstand, I disconnect from the plate chiller and just do kettle>pump>kettle** This gives me a higher flow rate. I used to drop my hops in loose, but after a clogged plate chiller, I now have a large stainless hop spider I use to contain all of my hops. Does an outstanding job. Once I am done with the hopstand, I kettle>pump>plate chiller>kettle, and get it to pitching temps. Once there, I cut the pump, and let the trub cone settle in the kettle. 10 min later, run off clear wort into the carboys.

This was a trial and error process that took several batches to hone in.

 

[normonster]

I use a false bottom and a bazooka tube in my BK....no problems ever.

 

[Brettomomyces]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Just to be clear, nobody has experience with a pump driven whirlpool that uses a plate chiller to do a 180* hop stand?

I do this actually, but I have a false bottom. I cut the heat, open all the valves and let it sit for 20-30 seconds, then start recirculating kettle -> pump -> kettle to catch particles/break/hops in my false bottom. After a minute of this, I put the duda chiller in after the pump.

So, kettle -> pump -> chiller -> kettle, I then run this for 5 minutes to heat sanitize the chiller. Then after that, turn the water on, chill to hop stand temp, and cut the water.