Problems with Bru' N water pH

[BrewinSoldier]

So I don't know why but I have always been way off with the Bru' N Water pH calculation. I build my water from scratch using 100% RO water and have been fir at least 4 years now. My RO source always gives me 6ppm or less of TDS so I know it's good water with regularly maintained filters. I have a $1,500 Mettler Toledo pH meter that I calibrate before every brew day so I know it's on point.

I used to use Bru n water with my Grainfather and was always off with that as well. For instance, if I wanted a room temp mash pH of 5.3, I would have to adjust my Bru n water pH to 5.2. That seemed to fix that.

Now that I switched to my new 3 vessel setup, my pH vs what Bru n water says is even WAY worse. I'm brewing a Hazy IPA as we speak. Entered all of the grain lovibond per each grain manufacturer specs. I adjusted my pH in Bru n water today all the way to 5.2ph. I still ended up with 5.45ph(which I know is still within range), but no where near the 5.2 that I wanted. Do I need to shoot all the way down to 5.0 ph or even lower just to get a wort with 5.2 ph?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

[bransona]

I've read many times that this is common with Bru'nwater---to be about .1 beneath the actual measured pH. I always take that into account in the spreadsheet, but I don't actually have a pH meter. Interested to hear from someone who knows more.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I've read many times that this is common with Bru'nwater---to be about .1 beneath the actual measured pH. I always take that into account in the spreadsheet, but I don't actually have a pH meter. Interested to hear from someone who knows more.

If I am reading what you wrote right, then I am having the opposite problem. If I want a mash pH a 5.2 I have to actually be under what it says. What the grainfather I just adjusted it for 5.1 if I wanted a 5.2 Mass pH but now it seems like I'm going to have to adjust it.2 or more than what my actual Target is.

 

[mabrungard]

What are you measuring pH with and how fresh are the calibration solutions that you use prior to each brewday?

 

[BrewinSoldier]

What are you measuring pH with and how fresh are the calibration solutions that you use prior to each brewday?

Hey Martin,

I'm measuring the pH with a Mettler Toledo Seven Compact pH meter that is using a Inlab expert pro-ISM probe. Calibration solutions are from Mettler Toledo as well with an expiration date of 12/20/2018 that I just purchased a few months ago. Was also doing the same thing using fresh milwaukee solutions.

I've also measured with my Milwaukee MW102 with a brand new probe. It reads almost the same once it stops wandering.

 

[bransona]

If I am reading what you wrote right, then I am having the opposite problem. If I want a mash pH a 5.2 I have to actually be under what it says. What the grainfather I just adjusted it for 5.1 if I wanted a 5.2 Mass pH but now it seems like I'm going to have to adjust it.2 or more than what my actual Target is.

No, that's the usual problem. Bru'nwater estimates a pH that's usually about .1 BELOW the desired pH. A .2 derivation is just an exaggerated version of the typical problem.

 

[mabrungard]

It appears that your pH measurements should be reliable. In addition, the reported low TDS implies that the water's alkalinity should also be very low. This only leaves the grist as a culprit in producing a higher than expected pH.

How much wheat and other non-barley materials are in the grist?

 

[rhys333]

So, I'm finding that my Bru'n Water estimates are off by a signigicant 0.2 to 0.4 pH margin. For example, a recent beer was predicted to be 5.12 but came in at 5.5. The batch before that came in over 5.6 and had noticeable astringency. I don't know if it's my base malt, RO supply, or what. The widest inaccuracies seem to be on batches heavy on wheat (0.4). My latest batch was an amber ale that included no wheat, and the variance was 0.22 (5.18 est., 5.4 act.).

 

[bransona]

So, I'm finding that my Bru'n Water estimates are off by a signigicant 0.2 to 0.4 pH margin. For example, a recent beer was predicted to be 5.12 but came in at 5.5. The batch before that came in over 5.6 and had noticeable astringency. I don't know if it's my base malt, RO supply, or what. The widest inaccuracies seem to be on batches heavy on wheat (0.4). My latest batch was an amber ale that included no wheat, and the variance was 0.22 (5.18 est., 5.4 act.).

Are you adjusting the Lovibond for each grain in each recipe entered into Bru'n? This will make a significant difference.

 

[rhys333]

Are you adjusting the Lovibond for each grain in each recipe entered into Bru'n? This will make a significant difference.

Yes.

 

[bransona]

Yes.

Accounting for temp? Are you testing your pH before brewing? Had the water tested?

 

[rhys333]

Accounting for temp? Are you testing your pH before brewing? Had the water tested?

Yes regarding temp. No on testing water. It's commercial RO, and I've made a point of using different suppliers.

 

[bransona]

Yes regarding temp. No on testing water. It's commercial RO, and I've made a point of using different suppliers.

Get it tested or use other water you know the chemistry of. See if that helps

 

[rhys333]

Get it tested or use other water you know the chemistry of. See if that helps

I think the water is the least likey cause, as I've experienced the same results with different sources. Some of whom post mineral levels.

 

[mabrungard]

Yes regarding temp. No on testing water. It's commercial RO, and I've made a point of using different suppliers.

Interesting. Have you been checking the TDS of those RO supplies? If you haven't, you're kidding yourself that its actually RO quality.

Whether you own the RO machine or its at a store, you do have to check the TDS to know that the machine is performing as intended.

 

[rhys333]

Interesting. Have you been checking the TDS of those RO supplies? If you haven't, you're kidding yourself that its actually RO quality.

Whether you own the RO machine or its at a store, you do have to check the TDS to know that the machine is performing as intended.

It's been the same results from three different sources, so I'm very reluctant to point to water as the most likely cause. I could test again using distilled, which should isolate this variable.

 

[GPP33]

I’ve seen anywhere from about 0.1 higher than Bru n water to dead nuts on. I’ve also noticed that bru n water sometimes calculates a slightly different SRM than beer smith. It’s all just estimates since you can’t possibly input absolutely every variable and no weight (grain or minerals) are dead nuts on target.