Problems with brewing DIPA

[bossbrews]

Hi there,

I've been having issues successfully brewing any kind of double IPA with partial mashing (the only way I can brew right now), and I'm a bit weary of trying another time given the high costs of brewing one. I love them, but dammit they always end up oxidized before I get a chance to enjoy them.

What could the issue be? Should you be oxygenating more OR less? Should I be more OR less cautious with racking? I was considering getting a wort chiller, and that perhaps that might finally allow me to brew one successfully.

Anyone else have a similar experience? Any tips you could give? Please let me know.

Thanks!

 

[rockfish42]

Here's tips from the master, what's your current process like?
http://www.brew-monkey.com/articles/Better_Hoppy_Beers.pdf

 

[bossbrews]

Here's tips from the master, what's your current process like?
http://www.brew-monkey.com/articles/Better_Hoppy_Beers.pdf

Thanks for the info.

Nothing out of the ordinary. I have success with the rest of my partial mash brews.

I use a 22lb bag of ice from 7-11 to do an ice bath where I intermittently switch out the ice and use the other side of my sink until the wort is cooled to pitching temp. I oxygenate a bit but nothing out of the ordinary. I just always end up with crappy results.

I wanted to try a 3 Floyds Dreadnaught clone next. I may just do a half a batch and bottle in bombers to avoid wasting a bunch of dough.

 

[HopJuicer]

What is the recipe and full process? What are you tasting that you know it's oxidized? For high gravity brews the yeast need plenty of oxygen to complete fermentation.

 

[rockfish42]

Are you doing full boils? What's your current recipe etc. chilling is less of an issue than you'd imagine.

 

[bossbrews]

What is the recipe and full process? What are you tasting that you know it's oxidized? For high gravity brews the yeast need plenty of oxygen to complete fermentation.

In terms of flavors, there are those sherry, cloying flavors I hear so much about. The hops are lost. The aroma is there but it's more like barleywine than DIPA and I was brewing a beer in the vain of Hoplsam with a recipe that others had tried with great results.

My process is pretty "standard", if you will. Like I mentioned, I never have this issue with other styles that I've brewed and I've been been brewing for about 2 years now.

I'm usually doing 4 gallon boils for 5.25 batch sizes, as I only have a 5 gallon pot.

I'm thinking maybe it's the oxygenating process. I just always am weary of pushing it considering that I understand more hops equals more chances of oxidation (sooner than later), or is that just not true?

I've brewed some pretty solid beers, so that's why I'm perplexed as to why this keeps happening. It's only really been twice, but being bitten like that twice is no fun.

 

[Piratwolf]

Not much info to help you with in these posts. Sounds to me like a cold-side issue.

What was OG/FG? What yeast did you use? Starter or no? What size starter?

How and at what point in the process do you aerate? What type of fermenter?

What kind of temp control do you practice? What was fermenting schedule and what temps at each stage?

Answering these will give us a sense of the mechanics involved that may lead to the off flavors.

 

[HopJuicer]

I can't answer your question about adding too many hops equalling more chance for oxidation. I have had 8-10oz in a 5 gallong batch (before dry hopping) with no issues. If you are shaking the bejesus out of your carboy when you are adding the yeast, I don't think you are over aerating the wort. If you are getting a cloying sweet flavor it sounds like it might be out of balance. What is the full recipe, hops and hop schedule?

 

[dcp27]

are DIPAs the only large beers you've made? sounds like you could be underattenuating which would cover the hops and give your sweet taste.

I just always am weary of pushing it considering that I understand more hops equals more chances of oxidation (sooner than later), or is that just not true? .

i've never heard of that

 

[phoenixs4r]

You really can't over-oxygenate unless you are pushing massive amounts of pure-o2 via a stone. If you are indeed getting oxidation in your finished product it will happen post-fermentation.

You don't pour your finished beer from carboy/bucket into another bucket for bottling do you? You would need to siphon at this point.

 

[bobbrews]

Post one of your failed recipes if you want more in depth analysis.

A full volume boil is very important for brewing a great DIPA.

 

[bossbrews]

You really can't over-oxygenate unless you are pushing massive amounts of pure-o2 via a stone. If you are indeed getting oxidation in your finished product it will happen post-fermentation.

You don't pour your finished beer from carboy/bucket into another bucket for bottling do you? You would need to siphon at this point.

Nope, I always use a siphon. I do shake the bejesus out out of my fermenter before and after addding yeast at the proper pitching temp.

Here goes for recipe. I converted this from an all-grain recipe. It is a half batch - partial mash.


OG: 1.101
FG: 1.025
IBU: 142
ABV: 9.8%
SRM: 9

Boil Volume: 3 gallons
Batch Size: 2.75 gallons
Yeast: 75% AA

58.8% - 5.0 lbs Extra Light Dry Malt Extract
17.6% - 1.5 lbs Vienna
5.9% - 0.5 lbs Crystal 20L
2.9% - .25 lbs Carafoam
2.9% - .25 lbs Honey Malt
11.8% - 1.0 lbs Honey


9.5 % 0.72 Columbus Pellet 15.4 11.1 FWH 0.105 31.6
7.5 % 0.57 Simcoe Pellet 13.0 7.4 60 0.173 34.9
7.5 % 0.57 Chinook Pellet 12.0 6.8 45 0.159 29.6
7.5 % 0.57 Centennial Pellet 10.5 6.0 30 0.133 21.7
7.5 % 0.57 Citra Pellet 11.0 6.3 15 0.086 14.7
7.5 % 0.57 Amarillo Pellet 9.4 5.4 10 0.063 9.2
15.1 % 1.14 Amarillo Pellet 9.4 10.7 0 0.000 0.0
15.1 % 1.14 Simcoe Pellet 13.0 14.8 0 0.000 0.0
22.5 % 1.70 Simcoe Pellet 13.0 22.1 DH 0.000 0.0

Total oz: 7.55 IBU: 141.6


Yeast: 2 packets of rehydrated Safale-05


Fermented at 65-66 F in a cool basement. I simply leave a thermometer in water and check the temp each day. Pretty consistent throughout.

Looking at it now, is my FG too high? Too many residual sugars floating around? Even then this thing has every hop in the book thrown in it. I would think the bitterness would outshine any of those sugars, but then again not sure.

Any feedback or advice would be helpful.

 

[dcp27]

that fg is a big part of the problem. you basically have an american barleywine here. i'd like to see that FG at least 5 pts lower, and really closer to 10pts lower. you also have too much crystal malt for a IIPA, esp since this is a PM (extract contains carapils).

how long is it taking before you're noticing the oxidized flavors?

 

[bossbrews]

Before bottling it had an alcoholic burn as I figured for the high ABV. I've had it in an RIS and imperial pumpkin ale I've done before, but those mellowed out well with conditioning. It seemed fine otherwise.

I started to notice a week or two after bottling. I tried one and it was definitely off...

 

[dcp27]

is the fermenter also in the water or just in the basement at those temps? S-05 is fairly forgiving, but if those are ambient temps your wort temp was likely in the 70s, which is too hot for a big beer. how long are you giving it in the fermenter?

 

[phoenixs4r]

that fg is a big part of the problem. you basically have an american barleywine here. i'd like to see that FG at least 5 pts lower, and really closer to 10pts lower. you also have too much crystal malt for a IIPA, esp since this is a PM (extract contains carapils).

how long is it taking before you're noticing the oxidized flavors?

Wellllllllll

Recipe design and the problem the OP is asking about are two different thing. a high FG might not be to style or to your liking, but it does not account for the oxidation.

OP: can you please describe in detail what the taste is like?

 

[bossbrews]

Fermenter was not in the water. I always do two weeks for primary.

 

[bossbrews]

Alright in terms of flavor, the nose is sweet and not hop forward.

Taste has some ripe fruity flavors. Hops in there for sure, but the sharper sweetness seems to overpower it.

Very boozy in flavor. Syrupy in body. Murky & brownish in appearance.

More barleywine than crisp DIPA I was going for.

 

[bossbrews]

It honestly reminds me of Dogfish Head 120 IPA. Basically, unbearable.

 

[wncbrewer]

Fermenter was not in the water. I always do two weeks for primary.

I usually go longer than two weeks for primary on big beers. Is it possible that what you're tasting is diacetyl? I only ask because I once rushed a IIPA to get it ready for competition, and got knocked hard for having diacetyl. The very same beer given adequate time scored 41 the next time I entered it. This seems logical to me if you're confident in your racking procedure.

 

[Nashbrewer]

Based on your flavor description you don't have major oxidation issues unless it is cardboard and sherry. I would drop a lb or two of your malt extract and replace it with dextrose or sugar to dry out the beer to get the correct FG for a hoppy beer. I would also try to reduce fermentation temp to 62 as if the water around the beer is 65 then your beer is probably fermenting closer to 70. Especially with a big beer like this and the amount of fermentation that would be going on.

 

[Piratwolf]

I would drop a lb or two of your malt extract and replace it with dextrose or sugar to dry out the beer to get the correct FG for a hoppy beer. I would also try to reduce fermentation temp to 62 as if the water around the beer is 65 then your beer is probably fermenting closer to 70. Especially with a big beer like this and the amount of fermentation that would be going on.

Strong second on both of these.

In fact, ti deal with the high FG, I'd go further. Cut your Vienna to .5# and Crystal to .25#, drop all the other specialty malts, and replace the honey with table sugar. If you need to add back some LME to up the OG, do that.

This approach cuts out most of the potential troubles and should get your FG down to the range that's dry & crisp enough to let the hops shine. I can almost guarantee *as long as your process is solid* that you'll have much more IPA character going on. Then if you need to add back a bit more Vienna or Crystal, you can build up rather than starting at the top.

The ripe, fruity flavors only generally come from US05 when the fermentation is too warm. (It's possible your honey brought some out... what type was it?) Some people get peach out of that yeast when it nears or exceeds 70F. But regardless of what your thermometer says, if you're getting ripe fruit you need to drop the temp at least 5 degrees IMO.

Don't give up.. it's all about adjustment!

 

[bossbrews]

In response to diacetyl... I don't think so. I brewed this thing back in March.

Honey was clover honey I picked up at the LHBS.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Seems all very logical and helpful for sure. I'll definitely take this into account when I tackle my 3 Floyd's Dreadnaught clone.

 

[Piratwolf]

In response to diacetyl... I don't think so. I brewed this thing back in March.

Honey was clover honey I picked up at the LHBS.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Seems all very logical and helpful for sure. I'll definitely take this into account when I tackle my 3 Floyd's Dreadnaught clone.

Clover shouldn't give fruit, I think. You might search on here for a recent Dreadnought thread... Make sure you pitch HUGE! I suggested wlp099--it crushed my Barleywine & helped unstick the OP's dead fermentation.

 

[bossbrews]

I'm still having issues with understanding how to get this thing under a FG of 1.020. I want it definitely to have dryness and dominant hop flavors.

I based my 3 Floyd's Dreadnaught recipe on the one Nick Floyd gave to BYO a while back. However, the specs are a bit off. On the 3 Floyds website, it says 9.5% ABV and 99 IBU rather than what is you see here:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=&t=22738

I'm by no means an ABV freak, so if it's closer to 8% that's fine, as long as it's good. I'm thinking mashing way lower than the 159F. More like 148-152 and fermenting around 60-65F. Don't have a fridge, but I'm thinking of submerging my fermenter in a Rubbermaid water tank and keeping it at monitoring as much as possible.

Here is the latest recipe I came up with. I have considered using more corn or table sugar. I've read up to 10-15% should be fine, but you guys tell me. I'm still struggling with this style.

Here goes:


Dreadnaught Clone

07. India Pale Ale, India Pale Ale Partial Mash
Color
Stats
OG 1.099
FG 1.025
IBU 99
ABV 9.5 %
SRM 7

Specifics
Boil Volume 4 gallons
Batch Size 5.25 gallons
Yeast 75% AA
Style Comparison
Low High
OG 1.050 1.099 1.075
FG 1.012 1.025 1.016

IBU 40 99 60+
SRM 8 7 14
ABV 5 9.5 7.8

Fermentables
% Weight Weight (lbs) Grain Gravity Points Color
71.7 % 9.75 Light Dry Malt Extract 83.6 3.7
8.1 % 1.10 Corn Sugar 9.6 0.0
9.2 % 1.25 German Melanoidin 2.4 6.0
11.0 % 1.50 American Two-row Pale 3.5 0.5
TOTAL 13.60 99.1

Hops
% Wt Weight (oz) Hop Form AA% AAU Boil Time Utilization IBU
13.2 % 1.06 Warrior Pellet 15.0 15.9 FWH 0.015 23.8
15.4 % 1.24 Simcoe Pellet 13.0 16.1 FWH 0.015 24.1
17.9 % 1.44 Centennial Pellet 11.0 15.8 FWH 0.015 23.7
8.9 % 0.72 Centennial Pellet 11.0 7.9 30 0.022 17.8
19.9 % 1.60 Cascade Pellet 5.0 8.0 15 0.012 9.6
12.4 % 1.00 Cascade Pellet 5.0 5.0 DH 0.000 0.0
6.2 % 0.50 Citra Pellet 10.0 5.0 DH 0.000 0.0
6.2 % 0.50 Galaxy Pellet 11.0 5.5 DH 0.000 0.0

TOTAL 8.06 99.0

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[dannedry]

I usually go longer than two weeks for primary on big beers. Is it possible that what you're tasting is diacetyl? I only ask because I once rushed a IIPA to get it ready for competition, and got knocked hard for having diacetyl. The very same beer given adequate time scored 41 the next time I entered it. This seems logical to me if you're confident in your racking procedure.

and I don't mean to hijack your thread... but WNCBREWER, I've just had the exact same thing happen to me as you described. Rushed my IIPA into the keg, let it carb up for 2 weeks, then bottled off a few to send into a competition, and got hammered for diacetyl/uncarbed/sweet/no hop aroma... despite 130 ibu worth of hops, and 6 oz of dry hops. How did you remedy this to get such a great score later on???? Thanks!

 

[wncbrewer]

and I don't mean to hijack your thread... but WNCBREWER, I've just had the exact same thing happen to me as you described. Rushed my IIPA into the keg, let it carb up for 2 weeks, then bottled off a few to send into.. a competition, and got hammered for diacetyl/uncarbed/sweet/no hop aroma... despite 130 ibu worth of hops, and 6 oz of dry hops. How did you remedy this to get such a great score later on???? Thanks!

The only difference was time, everything else I did exactly the same. Or as closely as my hot and cold side systems would allow anyway. The batch with diacetyl went grain to glass in 4 weeks, the good batch got 8. Your description above sounds almost identical for the scoresheet I got for the first batch

 

[dannedry]

The only difference was time, everything else I did exactly the same. Or as closely as my hot and cold side systems would allow anyway. The batch with diacetyl went grain to glass in 4 weeks, the good batch got 8. Your description above sounds almost identical for the scoresheet I got for the first batch

So the good score and bad score were 2 separate brews? I was hoping you miraculously were able to turn the bad batch good. I'm pulling the keg out and going to let it warm back up, and attempt to re-pitch a SAN DIEGO SUPER YEAST starter, in hopes that it may clean up some of my mess. And then maybe throw in some more dry-hops. Thanks for the reply

 

[JeffersonJ]

For my big partial mash IPAs, I usually mash around 148 to make the wort more fermentable. I prefer dry, hop-forward IPAs (one reason I don't care for all of DFH IPAs). Remember, most extract was probably mashed somewhere around 154-155°F. So if you have roughly equal gravity contributions from your extract and grains, you'll split the difference and end up with a similar profile to an all-grain that was mashed around 151°F.

Full boils also help a lot with hoppiness, but at 4 gallons you're relatively close to a full boil. I recently made the switch to full boils, so I was in a similar situatio to you. One thing you can try is to add small amounts of water during the boil as some evaporates off. Not an ideal solution, but better than adding it to the fermenter (as long as you don't require this additional water for cooling the wort).

 

[wncbrewer]

I would have never dre amed of using melanoiden malt in an ipa, but floyd knows a hell of a lot more about it than I do. In terms of helping attenuate well, I would recommend a huge starter. I haven't run it by mr. Malty, but I'm guessing for a beer that size with no stir plate it will be around a gallon. Aerate as best you can and pitch at fermentation temp. When are you adding corn sugar? Late in the boil or to fermentor?

 

[bossbrews]

I would have never dre amed of using melanoiden malt in an ipa, but floyd knows a hell of a lot more about it than I do. In terms of helping attenuate well, I would recommend a huge starter. I haven't run it by mr. Malty, but I'm guessing for a beer that size with no stir plate it will be around a gallon. Aerate as best you can and pitch at fermentation temp. When are you adding corn sugar? Late in the boil or to fermentor?

Thankfully, I have a stir plate. Would it make sense to make a bigger starter than recommended or am I looking for trouble? Mr. Malty has rarely if ever let me down.

I was thinking corn sugar at 15 min in the boil and any extra would be added to the primary. I would just boil it down in some water and cool it before adding.

I think I'll just have to mind my hydrometer readings more carefully. I tend to neglect them when I'm making smaller beers.

 

[wncbrewer]

I would go with the recommended starter size. What is your target final gravity? To be honest, I would be happy with anything in the 1.016 range give or take. That is still pretty dry for a beer with a 1.090 og. If there is one thing I would emphasize more than anything it would be give it plenty of time. Time improved my big beers more than my stirplate or oxygen stone or ranco. Not that those things aren't awesome, but a beer of this gravity needs time for the yeast to cleanup off flavors, and for the fusels to "cool off" some. My rule is to give it another week after I start getting stagnant gravity readings, then rack and proceed with dry hopping. Hope I have helped. I am sure it will turn out great.

Also, I have brewed my double ipa roughly a dozen times and it still isn't quite where I want it. Point being it may take a while for you to get it there, but that is just an excuse to brew more often as far as I'm concerned...cheers...wnc

 

[bossbrews]

I would go with the recommended starter size. What is your target final gravity? To be honest, I would be happy with anything in the 1.016 range give or take. That is still pretty dry for a beer with a 1.090 og. If there is one thing I would emphasize more than anything it would be give it plenty of time. Time improved my big beers more than my stirplate or oxygen stone or ranco. Not that those things aren't awesome, but a beer of this gravity needs time for the yeast to cleanup off flavors, and for the fusels to "cool off" some. My rule is to give it another week after I start getting stagnant gravity readings, then rack and proceed with dry hopping. Hope I have helped. I am sure it will turn out great.

Also, I have brewed my double ipa roughly a dozen times and it still isn't quite where I want it. Point being it may take a while for you to get it there, but that is just an excuse to brew more often as far as I'm concerned...cheers...wnc

Yup thanks!

I think around 1.016 sounds great. I'll get cracking on it next week.