Pro level adjustment of Alkalinity?

[Quattlebaumpt]

 

[PDX_T]

Are you a paid consultant for this brewery?

 

[Quattlebaumpt]

No not at all. My buddy is one of the brewers and he knows i am a water geek and have a better understanding of Brewing water chemistry than he does.

 

[afr0byte]

So i was asked to come down to a local brewery to test the PH of there brew day. They have been suffering from low efficiency 63% however inconsistent per reports. They are attempting to discover why. They haven't a clue on there water profile and i am assuming it is much like mine. Water(ppm):
Ca: 66
Mg: 20
Na: 27
Cl: 18
SO4: 36
Alkalinity: 262

ya ****ty, 262 in my area. So ? is are there ways to adjust for this high Alkalinity without cutting the water on this level.

I know there are many reasons for the low efficiency but they have asked me to simple see what the PH of the mash is? From my understanding PH only effects it by maybe 5% if your in the right range 5.2-5.5 room temp. So maybe they would see 68% instead of 63%?

They're a professional brewery that doesnt know how to measure pH? Wow. At 63% they probably have crush and lautering problems taking up a big chunk of efficiency loss. I don't see how they plan to make money.

Anyways, that water could have some alkalinity removed with lime softening or pre boiling + decanting followed by phosphoric acid additions.

 

[mblanks2]

they're a professional brewery that doesnt know how to measure ph? Wow.

+1,000,000,000

?

 

[Quattlebaumpt]

They're a professional brewery that doesnt know how to measure pH? Wow. At 63% they probably have crush and lautering problems taking up a big chunk of efficiency loss. I don't see how they plan to make money.

Anyways, that water could have some alkalinity removed with lime softening or pre boiling + decanting followed by phosphoric acid additions.

I do not wish to offend the brewery in ? They are attempting to better themselves and thats what matters. As far as lautering or crush problems they have a looked at the crush only. I am assuming it has to do with either the conversion or the lautering phase. Brewhouse efficiency will surly be looked at closer with measuring of conversion and lauter efficiency independent of each other.
However that being said they have simply asked my to measure their PH correctly to determine error in their ability to measure it.

I was just curious on how the professionals manage their brewing water with such a high Alkalinity (262) without cutting the water.

 

[Yooper]

I was just curious on how the professionals manage their brewing water with such a high Alkalinity (262) without cutting the water.

Lime softening would generally work, I'd think, or boiling and decanting off of the sediment. Either way, much of that alkalinity needs to be removed.

 

[Quattlebaumpt]

Lime softening would generally work, I'd think, or boiling and decanting off of the sediment. Either way, much of that alkalinity needs to be removed.

"Lime softening" i was afraid that would be the answer only because i havent done that on a homebrewer level. Maybe ill just tell them they should only be brewing stouts and porters and forget the APA IPA ya right! Thank you

 

[VladOfTrub]

I hope the best for Barney and Fred's, Bedrock Brewery. To hire someone as a brewmaster that lacks knowledge of pH and water treatment is a lose-lose situation. It doesn't sound like he's at the same brewing level as many homebrewers. Maybe they have budgeted in a water treatment system. Or, brew beer that works with the type of water available. I really hope they succeed.

 

[Quattlebaumpt]

I hope the best for Barney and Fred's, Bedrock Brewery. To hire someone as a brewmaster that lacks knowledge of pH and water treatment is a lose-lose situation. It doesn't sound like he's at the same brewing level as many homebrewers. Maybe they have budgeted in a water treatment system. Or, brew beer that works with the type of water available. I really hope they succeed.

Wow! you guys are harsh. I see i will have to reconsider what and how i post ? for the future. As far as water treatment options goes. sometimes ya just have to work with what ya got.

 

[schematix]

Most "professional" breweries either have good water to begin with (unlikely), or have an RO system.

The big boys run all their brewing water through RO and add minerals back for consistency.

This is all direct 2nd hand knowledge. I work with a number of people who designed portions of the breweries at AB, New Belgium, Sierra Nevada and Gambrinus and that's what they told me when I asked.

 

[ajdelange]

In many situations the people starting the brewery realize they don't know everything and hire consultants to advise them on things like refrigeration/chilling, water supply, brewhouse construction... It is well to have the water at a location under consideration tested before deciding to locate there. One can make beer with anything but treatment will be required if the water is as alkaline as implied here and that treatment has to be planned for in terms of the capital and operating costs associated with it. If possible, I would not choose a location with water that hard/alkaline but if there are no alternative sites that meet other requirements they are stuck with what they have got.

Lime treatment is feasible and has been done in many a brewery over time but it is messy, requires some analysis, and leaves one with a mess of calcium carbonate to dispose of. A more modern approach would be softening followed by RO. There are implications here of capital costs (1000 GPD - 33 bbl - skids are now available for about $3K) and operating costs (it takes energy to push the water through the membranes), maintenance costs (the membranes and filters have to be replaced periodically) and disposal of the concentrate which may require municipal approval. But you plumb the system up, turn it on and check on its performance by looking at the TDS meter once per day (or per gyle) and that's about it.

As for professional brewers not knowing how to measure pH: It's better than it used to be. At a recent MBAA regional meeting I asked how many present checked mash pH on a regular basis. About 15 hands went up. I asked how many never checked it at all and about 3 went up. Not a scientific survey by any means as half the people in the room were not brewers (i.e. suppliers to brewers) and some breweries had more than one guy in attendance.

At that same meeting I was asked, by a professional brewer, as to whether he should use metabite to reduce his chloride and by someone from the lab of a well known yeast supplier whether pH meter ATC shouldn't correct for changes in mash pH with temperature.

Lots of professional brewers, especially recently, are homebrewers who have a couple of friends who are doctors, lawyers, investment bankers... Even some who have been to the degree granting brewing schools have forgotten more than they know about brewing science and still others are of the opinion that one should not adjust his water because water gives his beer it 'house character'.

As for the efficiency - no, it doesn't depend much on mash pH which is a compromise with respect to many enzymes in the first place and in the second more dictated by the flavor quality of beer than efficiency. A commercial operation should see efficiencies (pounds of extract produced vs. pounds of grain mashed) in the 70's preferably the high 70's. This assumes, of course, the the coarse grind HWE of the malts being used is 80% or more. 63% or even 68% seems low. I would say they have problems beyond what mash pH adjustment can fix (though mash pH adjustment is very important). What did the mash pH measure?

Obvious things to look at are grind and mash temperature.

Is the alkalinity indeed as high as implied? Do they do anything about it (phosphoric acid)?

 

[Quattlebaumpt]

In many situations the people starting the brewery realize they don't know everything and hire consultants to advise them on things like refrigeration/chilling, water supply, brewhouse construction... It is well to have the water at a location under consideration tested before deciding to locate there. One can make beer with anything but treatment will be required if the water is as alkaline as implied here and that treatment has to be planned for in terms of the capital and operating costs associated with it. If possible, I would not choose a location with water that hard/alkaline but if there are no alternative sites that meet other requirements they are stuck with what they have got.

Lime treatment is feasible and has been done in many a brewery over time but it is messy, requires some analysis, and leaves one with a mess of calcium carbonate to dispose of. A more modern approach would be softening followed by RO. There are implications here of capital costs (1000 GPD - 33 bbl - skids are now available for about $3K) and operating costs (it takes energy to push the water through the membranes), maintenance costs (the membranes and filters have to be replaced periodically) and disposal of the concentrate which may require municipal approval. But you plumb the system up, turn it on and check on its performance by looking at the TDS meter once per day (or per gyle) and that's about it.

As for professional brewers not knowing how to measure pH: It's better than it used to be. At a recent MBAA regional meeting I asked how many present checked mash pH on a regular basis. About 15 hands went up. I asked how many never checked it at all and about 3 went up. Not a scientific survey by any means as half the people in the room were not brewers (i.e. suppliers to brewers) and some breweries had more than one guy in attendance.

At that same meeting I was asked, by a professional brewer, as to whether he should use metabite to reduce his chloride and by someone from the lab of a well known yeast supplier whether pH meter ATC shouldn't correct for changes in mash pH with temperature.

Lots of professional brewers, especially recently, are homebrewers who have a couple of friends who are doctors, lawyers, investment bankers... Even some who have been to the degree granting brewing schools have forgotten more than they know about brewing science and still others are of the opinion that one should not adjust his water because water gives his beer it 'house character'.

As for the efficiency - no, it doesn't depend much on mash pH which is a compromise with respect to many enzymes in the first place and in the second more dictated by the flavor quality of beer than efficiency. A commercial operation should see efficiencies (pounds of extract produced vs. pounds of grain mashed) in the 70's preferably the high 70's. This assumes, of course, the the coarse grind HWE of the malts being used is 80% or more. 63% or even 68% seems low. I would say they have problems beyond what mash pH adjustment can fix (though mash pH adjustment is very important). What did the mash pH measure?

Obvious things to look at are grind and mash temperature.

Is the alkalinity indeed as high as implied? Do they do anything about it (phosphoric acid)?

I will be checking it this Sunday. Yes the Alkalinity is that high. They do not use acid adjustments. They have actually had quite a bit of build up of which i dont know if its Beerstone or hard water scale. I think that use a caustic and follow up with an Acid and it takes care of it. I also have to deal with this on a homebrew level and use a RIMs system however i am able to cut my water. It sucks, i love light German lagers and it can be challenging. I hate cutting/buying water and will be looking into other options. Thanks AJ much appreciated

 

[mblanks2]

Wow! you guys are harsh. I see i will have to reconsider what and how i post ? for the future. As far as water treatment options goes. sometimes ya just have to work with what ya got.

I don't think anyone was intentionally being harsh, just completely amazed at a professional group not knowing about measuring PH or at all about water chemistry. I as a home brewer have learned more about water chemistry and the effects of adjustments from this site alone in less than a year than it sounds like your friends know.
As AJ stated, probably lawyers, doctors, and investment bankers working this. Not to be harsh but you need to get your friends involved in discussions regarding beer, chemistry and adjustments on a Pro level or I would think they will see great losses in their future.

 

[ajdelange]

I was, once upon a time, chatting with three head brewers from three different Gordon Biersch outlets and the thing I most remember from that chat was "You home brewers certainly take this water stuff more seriously than we do." That was several years ago and, as I said in #12, I get the sense that this is changing.

 

[mabrungard]

The myth: "If the water tastes good, its good to brew with" is so deceiving. While a water may make a small sub-set of beer styles well, it cannot make ALL beer styles into great beer. Good brewers learn that treating their water is a necessary skill that can profoundly improve their brewing and results.

 

[afr0byte]

I was, once upon a time, chatting with three head brewers from three different Gordon Biersch outlets and the thing I most remember from that chat was "You home brewers certainly take this water stuff more seriously than we do." That was several years ago and, as I said in #12, I get the sense that this is changing.

At least the McLean water isnt horrible for an alt...which explains the beer at Tysons Corner being decent

 

[schematix]

Bottom line: Most water (exception being very high alkalinity in pale beer) that tastes decent will make drinkable beer. But water is often the difference between just a beer and a great beer. Ignore your water and you're limited to what you can make.

I have had many 'craft' brews in my beer drinking career and very few have impressed me. After having done enough of my own beers without adjustment, and then the same recipe with adjustment, I can absolutely taste the difference.

The big name 'craft' beers all pay attention to water chemistry and their products for the most part taste better and are more consistent.

 

[mabrungard]

Agreed, Drinkable. Great beer often needs a bit of help in the water department.

By the way, who got a kick out of the Bud Light commercials from about a year or two ago that claimed there beer was drinkable? My wife and I got a kick out of their statement since that is what you tell your homebrewing friends that their beer isn't great.