Help interpreting alkalinity from water report for "Monadnock Spring Water"

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Considering using a different supplier for my brewing water (Monadnock Spring Water) since it's available in 5g jugs at the local market near me.

Overall the water looks similar to RO, but it is reporting "ND" (not detected) as the level for Alkalinity.

Does that mean I should treat Alkalinity as zero in Bru'n Water?

Calling @mabrungard

 

[mac_1103]

Overall the water looks similar to RO, but it is reporting "ND" (not detected) as the level for Alkalinity.

Does that mean I should Alkalinity as zero in Bru'n Water?

They define ND as "not detected at or above our lower reporting limit (LRL)." They give the LRL for alkalinity as 20 mg/L CaCO3. So it might be zero or it might be 19.9 mg/L. I would probably just use the profile for RO water that's already in Bru'nWater.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

They define ND as "not detected at or above our lower reporting limit (LRL)." They give the LRL for alkalinity as 20 mg/L CaCO3. So it might be zero or it might be 19.9 mg/L. I would probably just use the profile for RO water that's already in Bru'nWater.

Thanks, that makes perfect sense

So it's basically immaterial

Appreciate the explanation on how to read that in the water report

Cheers!

 

[user 246304]

They define ND as "not detected at or above our lower reporting limit (LRL)." They give the LRL for alkalinity as 20 mg/L CaCO3. So it might be zero or it might be 19.9 mg/L. I would probably just use the profile for RO water that's already in Bru'nWater.

I actually shoot for an alkalinity of 20 or so for pale bitters. Given this LRL (thanks for that as well, wasn't aware of that - always treated it as essentially nil or below detectable limits, not below some given threshold), what would you suggest - i.e., if it's closer to 0/RO is one thing, but if it's closer to 20, in terms of alkalinity and pale beers, it may be ideal as is?

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I actually shoot for an alkalinity of 20 or so for pale bitters. Given this LRL (thanks for that as well, wasn't aware of that - always treated it as essentially nil or below detectable limits, not below some given threshold), what would you suggest - i.e., if it's closer to 0/RO is one thing, but if it's closer to 20, in terms of alkalinity and pale beers, it may be ideal as is?

That alkalinity is low either way I think

The alkalinity is really only important for dialing in PH. I'll probably just assume an alkalinity of 10 and take a PH reading post mash. If i land a little higher in PH than target I'll just acidify in the kettle after mashing. End result will be similar enough either way

 

[mac_1103]

Given this LRL (thanks for that as well, wasn't aware of that - always treated it as essentially nil or below detectable limits, not below some given threshold)...

"Not detected" should always be read as "below the limit of detection" rather than as zero. Basically, you don't know what you don't know, right?

 

[user 246304]

"Not detected" should always be read as "below the limit of detection" rather than as zero. Basically, you don't know what you don't know, right?

Right, which makes it a bit tough, it seems to me, because if you want to start with a low - but some - level of alkalinity it seems to me that would be more difficult than if you were looking for a higher alkalinity (I use about 77 for dark ales). Right?

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Right, which makes it a bit tough, it seems to me, because if you want to start with a low - but some - level of alkalinity it seems to me that would be more difficult than if you were looking for a higher alkalinity (I use about 77 for dark ales). Right?

Starting with low alkalinity is ideal as a blank slate. 0 to 20 is pretty low (for all intents and purposes almost the same especially if you have a PH meter to make a tiny final adjustment in kettle if needed)

Bumping alkalinity up is easy with baking soda (assuming your water is low sodium)

Removing alkalinity is easy too with lactic acid or phosphoric acid. However, it's better to keep acid additions to a minimum as the byproducts from various acids have flavor thresholds above a certain concentration.

Dark beers are virtually the only beers where a high starting alkalinity is desirable. This is because roasted grains are highly acidic and need the alkalinity to balance the PH

 

[mac_1103]

which makes it a bit tough, it seems to me, because if you want to start with a low - but some - level of alkalinity it seems to me that would be more difficult than if you were looking for a higher alkalinity

What I don't know is whether this particular limit is typical.

I glanced at their website; this is filtered spring water. And checking a few more things on that report, it doesn't look all that similar to RO. TDS is 77, which is higher than my tap water. Hardness is 18, which is also not very RO-like.

 

[user 246304]

What I don't know is whether this particular limit is typical.

I glanced at their website; this is filtered spring water. And checking a few more things on that report, it doesn't look all that similar to RO. TDS is 77, which is higher than my tap water. Hardness is 18, which is also not very RO-like.

This has been interesting. Thanks.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

What I don't know is whether this particular limit is typical.

I glanced at their website; this is filtered spring water. And checking a few more things on that report, it doesn't look all that similar to RO. TDS is 77, which is higher than my tap water. Hardness is 18, which is also not very RO-like.

I think the hardness and TDS takes into account the levels of other minerals only some of which matter for brewing

Looking at the key ions like Calcium, Chloride, Sulfate, Sodium, Magnesium this is still pretty soft for brewing purposes as far as I can tell

I'm not familiar enough with what impact hardness or TDS have since they are very broad terms

 

[user 246304]

Starting with low alkalinity is ideal as a blank slate. 0 to 20 is pretty low (for all intents and purposes almost the same especially if you have a PH meter to make a tiny final adjustment in kettle if needed)

Bumping alkalinity up is easy with baking soda (assuming your water is low sodium)

Removing alkalinity is easy too with lactic acid or phosphoric acid. However, it's better to keep acid additions to a minimum as the byproducts from various acids have flavor thresholds above a certain concentration.

Dark beers are virtually the only beers where a high starting alkalinity is desirable. This is because roasted grains are highly acidic and need the alkalinity to balance the PH

I do not use lactic or phosphoric - I use dilution solutions I make up from strong H2SO4 and/or HCl, as they contribute useful ions as well. And, yes, on the higher starting alkalinity - as I said, I tend to use around 77 ppm alkalinity for dark ales, 20-25 for pale ales.

 

[hottpeper13]

Did ya'll miss the 70 TDS? with the calcium at 5 I would think; what's driving the TDS? You're gonna need some acid I believe.

 

[mac_1103]

Didn't mean to suggest that this is hard water or that it won't be good to brew with. Just that it's not really all that similar to RO.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I'll stick with Poland Spring for now which I've had good results with. It's a little further of a drive for me to get jugs of it than Monadnock Spring, but I know it always hits the numbers in Bru'n Water when I use Poland spring

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Didn't mean to suggest that this is hard water or that it won't be good to brew with. Just that it's not really all that similar to RO.

Got it, but for brewing purposes its pretty comparable right?

 

[hottpeper13]

I couldn't see the sulfite count, but the chloride at 24 I would think you could bring the pH inline with some CaCl and CaSO4 for darker amber and brown ales.

 

[mac_1103]

I'll stick with Poland Spring for now which I've had good results with... I know it always hits the numbers in Bru'n Water when I use Poland spring

So what do you use for your starting water profile in Bru'nWater?

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Found another decent option

The purified drinking water from target is pretty similar to RO and only $1 per gallon

Here's the water report. They have a purified version and a distilled version in the report. The "purified" is the one to look at

https://help.target.com/help/TargetGuestHelpArticleDetail?articleId=ka95d000000wpaBAAQ&articleTitle=Where+can+I+find+the+Target+Owned+Brand+water+quality+reports?

The good thing is they aren't adding any minerals back to it. I'll definitely consider using this stuff in the future as the price is right!

 

[hottpeper13]

A dollar a gallon, holy cow(from Wis.) not counting the initial investment of the RO system I spend 100$ for filter changes that last 3000 gal. That makes it 3 cents a gal. I put mine in when Woodmans went from 30 to 40 cents per gal.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

A dollar a gallon, holy cow(from Wis.) not counting the initial investment of the RO system I spend 100$ for filter changes that last 3000 gal. That makes it 3 cents a gal. I put mine in when Woodmans went from 30 to 40 cents per gal.

Unfortunately I live in a rental with limited space and not practical for me to install an RO filter

I brew about 8 batches a year, so it works out to about $150 per year for me which isn't terrible.

I miss when I lived in NY and could just use tap water

 

[mac_1103]

I don't exactly live in a major metro, but I was finally able to find a Whole Foods not too far away that has an RO dispenser. $0.35/gallon.

 

[VikeMan]

I'm not familiar enough with what impact hardness or TDS have since they are very broad terms

Hardness (aka Total Hardness), in a water report (unless it's an unusual water report), is expressed in mg/L (or ppm) "as calcium carbonate."

The formula is (2.497 x Ca++) + (4.118 x Mg++)

So it's really just Calcium and Magnesium ions.