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Pressurized Fermentation - Spike Conical

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cchart

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So I'm questioning my knowledge on the subject and I'd like the community's thoughts. I have a Spike conical and decided to ferment under pressure 11.5 gallons (10g batch) of an IPA. I transferred my wort to the fermenter, poured in the yeast, closed it up and set it aside. Within 24 hours the pressure began to rise in the fermenter (I have spikes pressure manifold attached with gas post, pressure relief valve and guage). By day 2 it had reached 12 psi and stayed there for close to 2 weeks. It dropped 2 PSI over 2 days to 10 PSI and remained there for the duration of fermentation. I'm thinking now that I was supposed to hook up C02 to the gas post at 10-15psi and pressurize it that way during fermentation. What's the difference and what is the correct way to actually ferment under pressure?

The minute I think I understand something I get something new that changes my course of thinking. Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts and corrective actions. BTW, the spike conical is awesome.

Cory
 
Yeah, I'd say you absorbed some co2 to make the pressure drop a bit. You did ferment under pressure but aren't carbonating if that is your goal. If you don't have the carbonation stone and a way to cold crash then you won't be able to carbonate. If that's not your goal what you did was fine.
 
Why did you ferment under that much pressure? Over 10 PSI yeast starts to die. There are certain yeasts designed for pressurized fermentation but most will be adversely affected by it.

Your beer will be more carbonated than a normal fermentation but if you wanted it to be fully carbed at room
Temp PSI needs to be close to 28 PSI.
If you’re using the carb stone you need to get the temp closer to 39* first.

Those fermenters are capable of holding at least 15 PSI I thought, in theory your fermentation should have built way more pressure than that. Did it have a PRV on it?

A meer 4 gravity points will build at least 30 PSI in a completely closed vessel.

Did your beer finish fermentaing and it tastes normal?
 
The prv valve on the spike releases around 12-13 psi so nothing wrong there. I've done batches as you described and have had no problem with attenuation/yeast health. Mostly with Wlp001. If you don't have a way to cool it you should transfer to kegs and carbonate.
 
Yeah, I'd say you absorbed some co2 to make the pressure drop a bit. You did ferment under pressure but aren't carbonating if that is your goal. If you don't have the carbonation stone and a way to cold crash then you won't be able to carbonate. If that's not your goal what you did was fine.

If he went all the way to the end, yes, he did carbonate. It's no different at one level than what happens when brewers bottle-condition.
 
Not sure of his temperatures but are you saying fermentation temps at 12 psi will carbonate fully? I have a hard time believing that. The 28 psi mentioned above is more in line with what I've seen, which is obviously impossible in the fermenter.
 
... If you don't have the carbonation stone and a way to cold crash then you won't be able to carbonate...

hmm

If he went all the way to the end, yes, he did carbonate. It's no different at one level than what happens when brewers bottle-condition.

This threw me for a moment too. I think what they mean is that at normal fermentation temps and at 10 psi that he wouldn't have fully carbonated his brew.
 
Yeah, I'd say you absorbed some co2 to make the pressure drop a bit. You did ferment under pressure but aren't carbonating if that is your goal. If you don't have the carbonation stone and a way to cold crash then you won't be able to carbonate. If that's not your goal what you did was fine.

Thanks Tim - your reply was the validation I was looking for. The "under pressure" part is not the act of applying pressure via CO2. It's simply not relieving the pressure from the vessel while it ferments. As for the carb stone, I do have the Spike stone as well, but no way to cold crash the fermenter. That's another project. I just kegged it yesterday and I won't cold crash and carb it until I have some room in my other fridges.
 
Why did you ferment under that much pressure? Over 10 PSI yeast starts to die. There are certain yeasts designed for pressurized fermentation but most will be adversely affected by it.

I didn't do that the fermentation did that.


Those fermenters are capable of holding at least 15 PSI I thought, in theory your fermentation should have built way more pressure than that. Did it have a PRV on it?

Yes - it's rated for 15psi


Did your beer finish fermentaing and it tastes normal?

Fermentation complete. Tasted normal from the sample I drew. We will see in a few weeks once I have room on tap.
 
Not sure of his temperatures but are you saying fermentation temps at 12 psi will carbonate fully? I have a hard time believing that. The 28 psi mentioned above is more in line with what I've seen, which is obviously impossible in the fermenter.

Here's my understanding of the process, and why I said what I did (subject to adjustment by anyone with better understanding than mine). His beer is carbonated although probably not all the way.

One of the Low Oxygen processes is spunding in the keg. This means transferring the fermenting beer to the keg when it has about 5 points of gravity to go. For instance, if final gravity will be 1.012, transferring when gravity is 1.017. And yes, nailing that is problematic, but that's the approach.

Beer fermenting 5 points of gravity will produce about 2.5 volumes of CO2. If you look at a carbonation table, you'll find that's pretty much in the middle of where we want to be.

So--as the yeast finish fermenting that last 5 points of sugar, the CO2, since it's not being vented, has to go somewhere. It goes into the beer.

This is not unlike what happens when you add priming sugar to bottles for conditioning and carbonation. That carbonation gets absorbed into the beer. What's more, the yeast act as if they were billions of tiny carb stones, meaning the CO2 is absorbed right into the beer. In essence, then, we're "bottle conditioning" in the keg when we do this.

So--I'd expect CCHart's beer to be carbonated. It likely isn't as high as he might want but if not, it'll be somewhat carbonated. What he'll need to do is chill it so the headspace CO2 is readily reabsorbed into the beer, and then see what he's got. I'll bet he's in the ballpark but not there.

***************

I'm still working all this out, including exactly how to account for the amount of CO2. In the keg, there is little headspace, so the CO2 has to mostly be in the beer. However, I have a Spike 10-gallon conical fermenter. I brewed a 5-gallon batch on Thursday and put it in the fermenter. While that was transferred to the keg with about 5 points remaining, I discovered an issue I need to resolve.

And that's this: while there isn't much headspace in a keg, there is in the 10-gallon spike conical fermenter when I only do a 5-gallon batch. If I were to pressure ferment in there as CCHart did, I won't get the full 2.5 volumes of CO2.

The reason is what you noted above. The system vents at 15psi. The CO2 produced is partially forced into the beer, but much is vented. To get beer carbed to the level we'd want, you're right, at that warm temperature he'd need to spund at 30psi more or less. He can't so the beer will be partially carbonated.

But when we spund in the keg, there is no venting so it's essentially the same as bottle conditioning.


I hope that was clear. It's an interesting process and one that we can use if we understand it correctly.
 
Beer fermenting 5 points of gravity will produce about 2.5 volumes of CO2. If you look at a carbonation table, you'll find that's pretty much in the middle of where we want to be.

So--as the yeast finish fermenting that last 5 points of sugar, the CO2, since it's not being vented, has to go somewhere. It goes into the beer.

But it is being vented, the PRV is releasing at 12 psi. So it's only going to be about 1.5 vols or less depending on the temp. That's different than carbing in the bottle at room temp where pressures get up above 30 psi.
 
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