Pressurized Closed Loop Corny Keg Fermenting

[jpb2716]

You could do that. Spunding is best from oxygen exclusion perspective though. If you do add priming sugar just make sure you do it as soon as it hits final gravity. Otherwise you’ll start to get ingress to the fermenter.

The best way to know to transfer is to monitor the gravity.

Ok you talked me into it. I'll be monitoring the gravity throughout fermentation.

I'll be using WLP090 San Diego Super Yeast for this batch so it's going to ferment quickly. At least in my experience it does. I've brewed this beer enough times that I know where the final gravity will end up. So, at least for this batch, I won't have to do a forced fermentation test to determine what final gravity will be.

Thanks again schematix. I appreciated the help.

 

[LittlejohnBrew]

On my 2nd batch of using this method. First one turned out well even given all the hiccups.

Brewed another NEIPA. On my first pressure fermentation I threw in all dry hops when pitching the yeast. Turned out fine, but decided to pitch at high krausen this go around. Well it's been about 36 hours and I decided to go ahead and throw in my biotransformation dry hops.

Unfortunately I can not relieve the pressure with out spewing a bunch of krausen out the PRV. There was plenty of headspace left after racking and I'm fermenting at 10 psi. I dropped the spunding valve down to 5 psi and will give it another go this evening. You guys run into this issue? Will fermcap really help?

 

[cheesebach]

On my 2nd batch of using this method. First one turned out well even given all the hiccups.

Brewed another NEIPA. On my first pressure fermentation I threw in all dry hops when pitching the yeast. Turned out fine, but decided to pitch at high krausen this go around. Well it's been about 36 hours and I decided to go ahead and throw in my biotransformation dry hops.

Unfortunately I can not relieve the pressure with out spewing a bunch of krausen out the PRV. There was plenty of headspace left after racking and I'm fermenting at 10 psi. I dropped the spunding valve down to 5 psi and will give it another go this evening. You guys run into this issue? Will fermcap really help?

I had the same issue on a NEIPA batch that I split 6.5 gallons between 2 different kegs to ferment with different yeasts - so there was plenty of headspace in both kegs. I was keeping both batches around 3 PSI, but the WY1318 batch still made quite a mess when I tried to relieve the pressure to add the dry hops on day 2. Since then, I don’t let any pressure build until after all my dry hops are in. Not sure what I’ll do for my next West Coast style IPA when I’m waiting until fermentation is finished to add dry hops - ideally I’d still like to naturally carbonate during fermentation, but not sure how to do that without making a mess.

 

[stickyfinger]

I had the same issue on a NEIPA batch that I split 6.5 gallons between 2 different kegs to ferment with different yeasts - so there was plenty of headspace in both kegs. I was keeping both batches around 3 PSI, but the WY1318 batch still made quite a mess when I tried to relieve the pressure to add the dry hops on day 2. Since then, I don’t let any pressure build until after all my dry hops are in. Not sure what I’ll do for my next West Coast style IPA when I’m waiting until fermentation is finished to add dry hops - ideally I’d still like to naturally carbonate during fermentation, but not sure how to do that without making a mess.

sorry, a bit of a tangent and we can take it to a different thread if it gets out of hand... i'm sure there is a lot of variability but what really is the "standard" dry hopping technique for west coast ipas these days? i think some are dry hopping during active fermentation (and have been for years, right? - firestone for example) and some are just waiting for terminal and then dry hopping and some are crashing partially or completely and then dry hopping. i guess the classic would be fermenting out completely, crashing some of the yeast at maybe 60F or something and then dry hopping? i thought it would be fun to use exactly the same malt bill and then adjust the water, bittering, yeast and dry hopping to compare the neipa with the wc ipa.

 

[crane]

On my 2nd batch of using this method. First one turned out well even given all the hiccups.

Brewed another NEIPA. On my first pressure fermentation I threw in all dry hops when pitching the yeast. Turned out fine, but decided to pitch at high krausen this go around. Well it's been about 36 hours and I decided to go ahead and throw in my biotransformation dry hops.

Unfortunately I can not relieve the pressure with out spewing a bunch of krausen out the PRV. There was plenty of headspace left after racking and I'm fermenting at 10 psi. I dropped the spunding valve down to 5 psi and will give it another go this evening. You guys run into this issue? Will fermcap really help?

Yes fermcap makes a huge difference. I forgot to add it one time and had blow off going through the spunding valve and ruined the PRV. Never had that problem any other time when using fermcap.

 

[crane]

sorry, a bit of a tangent and we can take it to a different thread if it gets out of hand... i'm sure there is a lot of variability but what really is the "standard" dry hopping technique for west coast ipas these days? i think some are dry hopping during active fermentation (and have been for years, right? - firestone for example) and some are just waiting for terminal and then dry hopping and some are crashing partially or completely and then dry hopping. i guess the classic would be fermenting out completely, crashing some of the yeast at maybe 60F or something and then dry hopping? i thought it would be fun to use exactly the same malt bill and then adjust the water, bittering, yeast and dry hopping to compare the neipa with the wc ipa.

You answered your own question. There is no "standard". That's what's so great about brewing. You have the freedom to experiment and figure out what works best for you to create your own standard.

 

[stickyfinger]

Floating dip tube. Fermented under pressure. 8oz dryhop for 3.5gal. Serving out of the fermentation keg without issue and it’s awesome and so much easier. Beer is noticeably more aromatic than identical recipe done in SS brew bucket / co2 transfer to serving keg method I did previously.

i’m interested n this. i did a split batch of neipa to 2 5G kegs. one has a floating dip tube and one has the Janish diptube screen. I have both fermentations purging SKs now but i am debating dry hopping, spunding and then crash cooling and serving from primary. Has anyone else done this? How long have you served the kegs that way without weird flavors? I figure that many of my IPAs have a ton of hops and yeast left in the bottom of the SK when I clean them, but this would be a whole new level of crap in contact with the beer!

 

[Sadu]

i am debating dry hopping, spunding and then crash cooling and serving from primary. Has anyone else done this? How long have you served the kegs that way without weird flavors?

I've done this a couple of times with smaller batches 2.5G kegs, a blonde ale and maybe a lager of some sort.

The beer quality was exceptional - the fermenter keg having never been opened. And by not transferring you cut out quite a few extra steps from your process.

I use floating dip tubes that draw from the top and these will tolerate a bit of keg movement before the beer gets cloudy but ideally you want to move it to the kegerator for crash cooling and then not move it again until it's empty.

My little batches were gone real quick but I'd imagine you'd easily get 4-6 weeks before the yeast cake started becoming a problem. You should give it a try.

Main reason I don't generally do this is that it takes up more kegs (for me 2x half-full fermenting kegs goes into 1x serving keg).

 

[LittlejohnBrew]

I'm also interested in serving from the fermentation keg due to simplicity and lack of fermentation chamber space. However I am also worried about potential off flavors. I've read autolysis results in the off flavors, but all the sources I've come by say that there is little harm in leaving the beer on the yeast cake even for months at a time especially if it is chilled. Also, pressure can stress the yeast resulting in autolysis however I've also read that at keg serving pressures the pressure is not significant enough to cause these issues.

I've been eyeing the clear beer draught floating dip tube to try this method, but it seems expensive for what it is. Cost more than double what i paid for each of my kegs. May try building my own.

 

[degivens]

i’m interested n this. i did a split batch of neipa to 2 5G kegs. one has a floating dip tube and one has the Janish diptube screen. I have both fermentations purging SKs now but i am debating dry hopping, spunding and then crash cooling and serving from primary. Has anyone else done this? How long have you served the kegs that way without weird flavors? I figure that many of my IPAs have a ton of hops and yeast left in the bottom of the SK when I clean them, but this would be a whole new level of crap in contact with the beer!

That batch lasted about a month and a half before it kicked. It was just as good, if not better, towards the end of that time. No perceivable off flavors sitting on the yeast and gunk for that long.

This is definitely my new standard process.

 

[stickyfinger]

That batch lasted about a month and a half before it kicked. It was just as good, if not better, towards the end of that time. No perceivable off flavors sitting on the yeast and gunk for that long.

This is definitely my new standard process.

cool, thanks for the input. i'll have to try it sometime. maybe for now i'll transfer to my purged SKs just so I can get my one clear beer system and one filter screen back into service sooner!

 

[hezagenius]

For my latest batch, I'm serving directly from the primary. I added dry hops on day 2 and started cold crashing on day 8. These pulls were from day 10. The first pull had lots of hop particles. I did 2 more small pulls and the hop material slowly decreased. I then did a pull to taste and that one was fairly clear of hop material. There was still some in it and it was evident in the taste. It's been crashing for a few more days so I will try it tonight to see how it is.

I put a stainless mesh tube over diptube. I think there is about a 1" gap between the bottom of the racking cane and the bottom of the mesh tube. And the mesh tube bottom is probably about 0.5" above the bottom of the fermentor.

If I can get that green grassiness to subside, this will be my go-to method. One less chance to introduce oxygen. But if that green-ness doesn't subside by this weekend, I'll probably do a pressure transfer to a liquid purged keg.

 

[schematix]

in my experience the hop debris subsides after a few pulls. the first 6oz or so is definitely not drinkable (unless you like yeast hop slurry). the first few glasses are not ideal, but after that it's pretty great.

something else to look at for these mega dry hopped beers is a floating dip tube. i haven't used them myself but i hear they solve a lot of the issues like this.

 

[hezagenius]

in my experience the hop debris subsides after a few pulls. the first 6oz or so is definitely not drinkable (unless you like yeast hop slurry). the first few glasses are not ideal, but after that it's pretty great.

something else to look at for these mega dry hopped beers is a floating dip tube. i haven't used them myself but i hear they solve a lot of the issues like this.

Floating dip tubes definitely help. I use those in my corny kegs for every beer. I'm using a sanke keg for this, though, so the Clear Beer system doesn't fit. I've got a plan for one for a sanke. Just waiting on some part to see if it works.

 

[ttuato]

If this has been asked previously I apologize.

In lieu of filling the SV & purging w/ CO2 tank, Would this process work for DOUBLE dryhop IPAs?

1.) sanitize the SV similar to FV w/ NO water purge
2.) attach the IN from the FV to the OUT of the SV, and attach a blowoff tube to the OUT of SV - place Dryhop#2 "commando" in SV at beginning of fermentation
3.). OVer the course of the first three of fermentation the CO2 from primarY FV would continually purge the SV (assumption - is this right?)
4.) After 72 hrs (6-10pts before FG) - add Dryhop 1 to FV. Spund SV
5.) Allow pressure to build to ~15psi in SV, seal then move spund FV to finish naturally carbing beer
6.) After FG, chill to 38 to "crash" for a couple days.
7.) Transfer from FV to purged / pressurized / cold SV that contains Dryhop 2 - SLOWLY at first so the initial nucleation from the natural carb is contained. (Transfer cold & pressure in SV is key) After initial foaming proceed transfer
8.). Allow beer to free rise to room temp on a couple days to extract Dryhop 2 - then chill again & serve.


Thoughts?

 

[ttuato]

Also I have both the Clear Beer & Fermentausaurus floating diptube - funtion / performance is the exact same between the two - in serving kegs & fermenting kegs. Price is significantly different though....

Tip - add your own silicone tubing to the Fermentasaraus. What comes with it is crap.

 

[duelerx]

Also I have both the Clear Beer & Fermentausaurus floating diptube - funtion / performance is the exact same between the two - in serving kegs & fermenting kegs. Price is significantly different though....

Tip - add your own silicone tubing to the Fermentasaraus. What comes with it is crap.

Also looking replacing the silicone tubing of mine, what size of tubing have you successfully used?.

 

[stickyfinger]

Also I have both the Clear Beer & Fermentausaurus floating diptube - funtion / performance is the exact same between the two - in serving kegs & fermenting kegs. Price is significantly different though....

Tip - add your own silicone tubing to the Fermentasaraus. What comes with it is crap.

what is a good filter for the fermentasaurus one?

 

[ttuato]

Also looking replacing the silicone tubing of mine, what size of tubing have you successfully used?.

1/4 ID : 3/8 OD

 

[ttuato]

what is a good filter for the fermentasaurus one?

Not sure, I dont use one. I have done 5 kegs w/ it - ferment & serve same keg. Four were NEIPAs w/ 6pz dryhops free floating each time, no clogs or poppet issues. To be fair I dont check OG during fermentation and cold crash before I ever pull the first drop through it.

 

[gnor]

Where did you buy your fermentasaurus floating diptube?

 

[Sadu]

Talk to me about this replacement fermentasaurus tubing. I'm using the standard ones and they only fit inside the stainless dip tube. I thought a tube that fits on the outside would be easier to use and less chance of blockage.
Is that how it works out in practice?

 

[ttuato]

Where did you buy your fermentasaurus floating diptube?

Morebeer

 

[ttuato]

Talk to me about this replacement fermentasaurus tubing. I'm using the standard ones and they only fit inside the stainless dip tube. I thought a tube that fits on the outside would be easier to use and less chance of blockage.
Is that how it works out in practice?

You got it. It fits over the diptube and the attachment snugly. 1/4ID & 3/8OD It is the same size food grade silicone tubing as rhe Clear beer system. I buy it from amazon.

 

[fragged]

You got it. It fits over the diptube and the attachment snugly. 1/4ID & 3/8OD It is the same size food grade silicone tubing as rhe Clear beer system. I buy it from amazon.

Same here.

 

[Wrinkletusk]

Amazing thread, and it has cleared up a few questions I've had while fermenting in a corney and spunding for the past few months (independent of this thread).

I have a question about cold crashing I was hoping someone could answer: As an experiment with my current brew, i have fermented at room temp under 10psi with no temperature control. I kept the keg at 10psi for 48 hours, then let it ramp up to 30psi to start naturally carbonating. I plan to start the cold crash on Sunday, but I don't know if I should purge the keg down to the intended serving pressure (10psi) before crashing. Do I purge to 10psi, or do I keep the keg at 30psi when putting it into the fridge to crash? I'm thinking I should put the keg into the fridge at 30psi which will reduce as the temp drops and the co2 dissolves into the beer, but I'm not 100% confident that this is the case. Am I on the right track?

 

[leesmith]

Amazing thread, and it has cleared up a few questions I've had while fermenting in a corney and spunding for the past few months (independent of this thread).

I have a question about cold crashing I was hoping someone could answer: As an experiment with my current brew, i have fermented at room temp under 10psi with no temperature control. I kept the keg at 10psi for 48 hours, then let it ramp up to 30psi to start naturally carbonating. I plan to start the cold crash on Sunday, but I don't know if I should purge the keg down to the intended serving pressure (10psi) before crashing. Do I purge to 10psi, or do I keep the keg at 30psi when putting it into the fridge to crash? I'm thinking I should put the keg into the fridge at 30psi which will reduce as the temp drops and the co2 dissolves into the beer, but I'm not 100% confident that this is the case. Am I on the right track?

Yes just put it in the fridge. Once it gets cold the pressure will match whatever the carb level PSI is at that cold temperature. No need to purge.
Attach the gas once it’s cold. Keg may be at higher than serving PSI but it will level out after a pour or two.

 

[Sadu]

Yep, put it in the fridge and the pressure will drop nicely.
Personally I like to let lagers finish at 15psi and ales at 20psi (my gauge doesn't go past 20 so anything beyond is guesswork). This results in a slightly undercarbed beer which ends up perfect with a couple of days on the gas while cold crashing.
Personally I find overcarbed kegs a hassle to deal with but with this approach it never happens.

 

[Wrinkletusk]

Thanks to you both, Sadu and Leesmith. I'll chuck the keg into the fridge at 30psi.

 

[Hannabrew]

Also I have both the Clear Beer & Fermentausaurus floating diptube - funtion / performance is the exact same between the two - in serving kegs & fermenting kegs. Price is significantly different though....

Tip - add your own silicone tubing to the Fermentasaraus. What comes with it is crap.

I have the same. I have had issues with the fermentasaurus one sucking air though. Have you not had that issue?

 

[cheesebach]

For those of you using the floating dip tubes in the FV - are you still able to do a closed gravity-fed transfer to the SV? Or do you need to use CO2 to apply pressure to the FV to keep the transfer going? I’m wondering whether the screen on the floating dip tubes to keep out dry hops would restrict flow enough that the gravity fed transfer wouldn’t work.

Also, how easy is it to clean all the the yeast and hop material out of the nooks and crannies on these, since they can’t really be submerged and soaked in PBW to clean? I bought one of the CBD floating dip tubes with the dry hop screen awhile ago, but haven’t tried it yet in the FV because of some of these concerns.

 

[TimmyWit]

For those of you using the floating dip tubes in the FV - are you still able to do a closed gravity-fed transfer to the SV? Or do you need to use CO2 to apply pressure to the FV to keep the transfer going? I’m wondering whether the screen on the floating dip tubes to keep out dry hops would restrict flow enough that the gravity fed transfer wouldn’t work.

Also, how easy is it to clean all the the yeast and hop material out of the nooks and crannies on these, since they can’t really be submerged and soaked in PBW to clean? I bought one of the CBD floating dip tubes with the dry hop screen awhile ago, but haven’t tried it yet in the FV because of some of these concerns.

I haven't tried a transfer with the closed loop method yet but I did push with Co2 while using the spunding valve to apply counter-pressure. It's pretty close to the same thing and I think the closed loop transfer would work fine.

I think it's important to crash before you transfer even if you have the screen on. I took some samples prior to crashing because I was serving at a festival and was considering serving straight from the FV. But, since I was getting a few floaty bits, I crashed first then transferred. I didn't want to risk stirring anything up during transport.

CBDS isn't hard to clean. Just a good wipe-down with a PBW and a soft cloth. After I reassemble the keg, I fill it to the brim with sanitizer then put the lid on so that CBDS gets submerged in sanitizer.

Kinda off topic but along the lines of cleaning, Intertap makes something called a ball lock spout that makes light work out of cleaning the liquid jumper. If you have a homemade draft setup (made from a pump sprayer), attach that to one end and put that ball lock spout on the other end. Pump your sanitizer of choice through and you're done.

 

[hezagenius]

For those of you using the floating dip tubes in the FV - are you still able to do a closed gravity-fed transfer to the SV? Or do you need to use CO2 to apply pressure to the FV to keep the transfer going? I’m wondering whether the screen on the floating dip tubes to keep out dry hops would restrict flow enough that the gravity fed transfer wouldn’t work.

Also, how easy is it to clean all the the yeast and hop material out of the nooks and crannies on these, since they can’t really be submerged and soaked in PBW to clean? I bought one of the CBD floating dip tubes with the dry hop screen awhile ago, but haven’t tried it yet in the FV because of some of these concerns.

The screen shouldn't cause any issues. I've done many closed pressurized transfers with screens on both the FV and the SV side and have never had a problem with the flow. If you crash the beer first, then transfer, it will be more clear, but I've done it both ways with no issues.

The CB cleans off really easy. Just rinse it off with water and clean as normal with PBW like any other metal pieces you have. For the float itself, swish it around every so often in the PBW solution. That's about all you can do unless you put it in a container to keep it submerged.

 

[stickyfinger]

i have been trying the clear beer draught system in a primary keg for the first time. so far i am very pleased. i dry hopped with 8 oz of loose pellets and it just shoots out gravity/tasting samples with no problem. i also have been thinking they would work great for throwing a keg in the car to take to an event without getting sediment into the serving line.

 

[bg1414]

If this has been asked previously I apologize.

In lieu of filling the SV & purging w/ CO2 tank, Would this process work for DOUBLE dryhop IPAs?

1.) sanitize the SV similar to FV w/ NO water purge
2.) attach the IN from the FV to the OUT of the SV, and attach a blowoff tube to the OUT of SV - place Dryhop#2 "commando" in SV at beginning of fermentation
3.). OVer the course of the first three of fermentation the CO2 from primarY FV would continually purge the SV (assumption - is this right?)
4.) After 72 hrs (6-10pts before FG) - add Dryhop 1 to FV. Spund SV
5.) Allow pressure to build to ~15psi in SV, seal then move spund FV to finish naturally carbing beer
6.) After FG, chill to 38 to "crash" for a couple days.
7.) Transfer from FV to purged / pressurized / cold SV that contains Dryhop 2 - SLOWLY at first so the initial nucleation from the natural carb is contained. (Transfer cold & pressure in SV is key) After initial foaming proceed transfer
8.). Allow beer to free rise to room temp on a couple days to extract Dryhop 2 - then chill again & serve.


Thoughts?

I'm interested in this method as well. Even without the dryhop 2 I'm wondering if it's ok to transfer a fully carbonated beer cold/slowly or will it create enough O2 to oxidize the beer? Thoughts?

 

[LittlejohnBrew]

I'm interested in this method as well. Even without the dryhop 2 I'm wondering if it's ok to transfer a fully carbonated beer cold/slowly or will it create enough O2 to oxidize the beer? Thoughts?

I've transferred warm fully carbed or close to it with a couple brews now and havent had any issues yet. Maybe it has been proven elsewhere, but i don't see how you pick up any oxygen transfering this way. My transfer occurs at 20-30 psig and the flow is so slow no way a venturi is being created and causing vacuum at fittings. I also purge my tubing prior to connecting the kegs together. Can't think of any other sources of oxygen pickup?

 

[stickyfinger]

That batch lasted about a month and a half before it kicked. It was just as good, if not better, towards the end of that time. No perceivable off flavors sitting on the yeast and gunk for that long.

This is definitely my new standard process.

I'm serving from the primary with an NEIPA I just did. It's been in the kegerator for about a week now. It tastes amazing. I love the CBDS! One interesting thing of note is that the pours are quite clear, much clearer than I would expect from an NEIPA at this point. I guess the yeast and hop particles have dropped below the level of the CBDS intake. I've never had an IPA with so much pungent hop flavor that is so clear. The clarity is equivalent to a very hazy west coast IPA or maybe a slightly warmed up Alchemist IPA. I used WLP095. Anyway, if this is a success after serving for like a month, I might just start doing this from now on. I did one half of my batch using the stainless dip tube filter with a rubber bung in the top (the Janish filter setup) and one half with the CBDS. The CBDS never clogged, but I somehow clogged the Janish setup. I just ordered 3 more CBDSs!

 

[schematix]

OP here. Hate to break it to you guys, but I’m moving on from corny fermenting. It’s been a great run though and no regrets.

 

[TimmyWit]

OP here. Hate to break it to you guys, but I’m moving on from corny fermenting. It’s been a great run though and no regrets.

View attachment 573800

Congrats! You went all out glycol + conical correct? I'm sitting here right now dreaming of a glycol unit as I struggle to get to pitching temps even with a pre-chiller, bags of ice & CFC.

That conical looks super sweet! Well done!

 

[schematix]

Congrats! You went all out glycol + conical correct? I'm sitting here right now dreaming of a glycol unit as I struggle to get to pitching temps even with a pre-chiller, bags of ice & CFC.

That conical looks super sweet! Well done!

Yep. Chiller shipped today. Will be here day after tomorrow and that'll complete the upgrade.