Pressurized Closed Loop Corny Keg Fermenting

[schematix]

Well I woke up this morning to a clogged gas out line. What a mess trying to fix things. 1318 is a beast when fermenting and is a top cropping strain. Seems like it was definitely not a smart idea starting out with this yeast. Live and learn.
7 PSI and 10 drops of baby anti-gas was pretty much useless.

Good experience to share.

1. I haven't used 1318 before.... is that known for a large kraussen?
2. What temperature are you fermenting at? How are you measuring/controlling it?
3. Did you use shortened gas dip tubes?
4. How full was your keg? I think the top weld is fairly consistent across kegs so it's a good reference point. Was your wort above or below, and by how much?

I can't rule it out that it may be necessary to use a blow off tube in certain circumstances, before switching to the keg purging/pressurized ferment.

 

[raysmithtx]

Well I woke up this morning to a clogged gas out line. What a mess trying to fix things. 1318 is a beast when fermenting and is a top cropping strain. Seems like it was definitely not a smart idea starting out with this yeast. Live and learn.
7 PSI and 10 drops of baby anti-gas was pretty much useless.

Will the baby anti-gas (simethicone) cause problems with head retention/formation?

 

[schematix]

Will the baby anti-gas (simethicone) cause problems with head retention/formation?

No it settles out. I've been using it for years in the boil and in the ferm and i get killer head.

 

[thekraken]

ipe:

 

[PartagasD4]

The baby drops work great with the 1318 in the starter. 1-2 drops and no krausen. I use a stir plate and I got tired of cleaning up the mess in the morning.

 

[raysmithtx]

No it settles out. I've been using it for years in the boil and in the ferm and i get killer head.

Good to know. I've always used it in the boil but never in the fermentation. As soon as my corny lids with the thermowells installed arrive I will be doing my first batch using the closed loop.

 

[PartagasD4]

Good experience to share.

1. I haven't used 1318 before.... is that known for a large kraussen?
2. What temperature are you fermenting at? How are you measuring/controlling it?
3. Did you use shortened gas dip tubes?
4. How full was your keg? I think the top weld is fairly consistent across kegs so it's a good reference point. Was your wort above or below, and by how much?

I can't rule it out that it may be necessary to use a blow off tube in certain circumstances, before switching to the keg purging/pressurized ferment.

1. 1318 is as bad or worse than any yeast I have used, the krausen never seems to go away either. That is why in an earlier post I asked if someone tried using it so I didn't have to be the guinea pig

2. I am fermenting at 65. I have a brewpi setup I built and can maintain temps extremely well.

3. I shortened the gas tube so it was actually up inside the gas outlet by about 1/8 inch

4. And yes this is were I probably should have used better thought, I filled to the seam. At least I was smart enough to use a rag while relieving pressure , still made a small mess.
While I was removing and cleaning the lid and gas post/poppet I needed to constantly spoon out the overflowing keg, that was fun.

As of right now I went ahead and added the dry hops, its day 3. I let the pressure build to 12 PSI and seems to be at least working for now.
No yeast in gas lines so far.

This is my Brewpi setup, it definitely could look prettier but it is the best thing I ever did to my fermentation.

 

[schematix]

As of right now I went ahead and added the dry hops, its day 3. I let the pressure build to 12 PSI and seems to be at least working for now.
No yeast in gas lines so far.

Thanks for taking one for the team!

I've done a couple ales, both with 1450, and the blow off was minimal. I got a few drops of liquid into the hose between the kegs, but no crud. When i took the kegs apart to clean them though it was obvious the whole head space filled with kraussen. I'm not sure what is keeping my kraussen from getting out of the keg though. With lagers i've had no more than 1cm (i normally use WL835).

A potential solution i've seen is to take the post, poppet and dip tube out entirely and attach a 1/2" blow off tube (need to verify size but that's approx correct) around the threads. After a few days when things calm down then you put the post back in and build some pressure.

As far as the dry hopping i don't go by time, i go by gravity. I think its best with like 2-6 points remaining so you have enough extract remaining to scrub O2 out, but also not so much that you need to vent (in fact at this stage i usually remove the spund and just monitor pressure twice a day). All that gas you're venting is full of hop aromas that are best kept inside the keg!

Make sure to calculate priming sugar based on the current temp/pressure. You probably have >50% of the carbonation you need so a couple oz of sugar will be sufficient to finish the carbonation.

 

[thekraken]

Don't have a spund valve? Try these threads. I'd recommend a 30 psi gauge. There are at least 3 different inexpensive pressure relief valves out there, and just know that all of them will slowly leak, so once fermentation ramps down you need to disconnect them and keep the keg sealed. You want to occasionally connect them to bleed off the excess pressure though.

Just to clarify, ALL prv will slowly leak or just the 3 cheap ones you were referring to? I see in your picture you're using the relatively expensive PRV from McMaster Carr.

The reason I ask is I have the same valve in your picture, I've been pressure testing my setup the past day or so and have about a 8 psi/day leak somewhere... Not that it matters much if the yeast are churning away.

Can you be more specific about when fermentation is ramped down enough for you to disconnect the PRV and how often you manually relieve the pressure after you've disconnected them? Do you still keep a pressure gauge on? Maybe just an inline shut off valve between the tee fitting and the PRV would be convenient here.

 

[PartagasD4]

I personally have tried all 3 that I have seen recommended on many different websites. They all leak, the McMaster Carr prv leaks the slowest. If you notice I have a shutoff valve on mine because of this.

And schematix thanks for the help, I think I will try either 4 or 4.5 gallon batches next time I use this yeast.

 

[schematix]

Just to clarify, ALL prv will slowly leak or just the 3 cheap ones you were referring to? I see in your picture you're using the relatively expensive PRV from McMaster Carr.

If you read all the spund valve links i posted there are 3 common PRV valves that people use. I've seen people report leaks on all of them.

The reason I ask is I have the same valve in your picture, I've been pressure testing my setup the past day or so and have about a 8 psi/day leak somewhere... Not that it matters much if the yeast are churning away.

Mine isn't quite that bad but its not ok to leave it attached unless there is active fermentation. My leakage problem got much better when I switched from tape to dope. The tape works ok for water but air/co2 has less surface tension than water so it can make its way out much easier.

Can you be more specific about when fermentation is ramped down enough for you to disconnect the PRV and how often you manually relieve the pressure after you've disconnected them? Do you still keep a pressure gauge on? Maybe just an inline shut off valve between the tee fitting and the PRV would be convenient here.

It's "safe" to remove when the amount of remaining sugars will not generate an excessive pressure, or excessive carbonation in the beer if left unvented. This number is highly variable depending upon temperature and pressure, but it's on the order of 2-6 specific gravity points usually.

For ales i check it after a few days and then monitor as needed. The pressurizing curve is like an exponential approaching steady state (i think there's a better name for this but it's not coming to me), so you'll see your sharpest rise in the first few days, then it'll taper off. Check it frequently to start, then less and less so as its needed loss often.

For lagers i normally wont' even check until it's been sealed up for a week or two. They are much slower.

The further they are from the target pressure, the less frequently i check them. The closer they are, the more frequently i check until they reach steady state.

To check i just attach my spund valve with the pressure relief turned up high so it doesn't release. The gauge will read the pressure in the keg. I then pull the PRV on the keg to relieve.

 

[PartagasD4]

oh and if you look up differences in types of pressure valve's you will find out these work as designed. They are made to control pressure on a constant pressure line at least that is what I read with the little research I've done. I don't know much about pressure systems but I wondered if a back pressure valve would work better or are they even adjustable.

 

[thekraken]

Thank you for all the answers.

Hey, anyone ever given any thought to replacing the PRV with a micro controller+pressure sensor+solenoid?

 

[PartagasD4]

Thank you for all the answers.

Hey, anyone ever given any thought to replacing the PRV with a micro controller+pressure sensor+solenoid?

Now that would be pretty cool. Seems all I can accomplish is blowing yeast all over the inside of my fermentation chamber

 

[schematix]

Thank you for all the answers.

Hey, anyone ever given any thought to replacing the PRV with a micro controller+pressure sensor+solenoid?

isn't this complicated enough without adding electronics?

 

[thekraken]

Bah, not even close!

 

[schematix]

Sounds like a lot to go wrong, but i could see that working a lot better than all the mechanical PRVs out there.

 

[thekraken]

IF it worked reliably it would be straight forward to preprogram 'profiles' to automatically follow and adjust a pressure schedule based on time. Or the pressure schedule might adjust based on frequency of pressure reliefs. Or one might could integrate it with the Tilt hydrometer and program the profile to adjust pressures based on gravity. And/or one could integrate it into brewpi... oooh the possibilities!

 

[schematix]

I did find a way to get kraussen to go through the gas tip tube and into the serving keg.

First of all i REALLY pushed the limits of how much i can put in the keg. I was about 3/4-1" over the top weld.

I was expecting fermentation to kick off today so i put the PRVs on this morning and set them for a rough 5 psi. I really wanted 3.5 psi though. When i got home tonight i quickly released the excess pressure through the serving keg and magic, the transfer line instantly filled with foam.

So don't overfill the keg and don't release pressure rapidly and you'll be ok.

 

[thekraken]

If the recipe calls for dry hops I add them to the keg in a suspended nylon bag (or equivalent) with 4-6 SG points remaining. This is to scavenge any oxygen introduced by the dry hops. A few days later the beer will be at FG and the dry hops will have given their all. During this time pressure is maintained to minize loss of aromas as the last of the fermentation gasses escape.

When you say during this time pressure is maintained to minimize aroma loss do you mean your maintaining 3.5 psi or you remove the spunding all together and let the pressure climb?

 

[schematix]

When you say during this time pressure is maintained to minimize aroma loss do you mean your maintaining 3.5 psi or you remove the spunding all together and let the pressure climb?

At this point i let the pressure start to rise.... maybe 10-15 psi. probably can just seal and monitor the keg at this point.

 

[leesmith]

Could I use a 5 gallon keg to ferment a 2.5 gallon batch with this method? The SV would be a 2.5 gallon keg if possible.

I'm hoping this would allow greater head space to eliminate blow off issues. Used 5 gallon kegs are easier and cheaper to come by.

Would there be an issue during transfer because of the two different volumes?

 

[crane]

Could I use a 5 gallon keg to ferment a 2.5 gallon batch with this method? The SV would be a 2.5 gallon keg if possible.

I'm hoping this would allow greater head space to eliminate blow off issues. Used 5 gallon kegs are easier and cheaper to come by.

Would there be an issue during transfer because of the two different volumes?

That would work just fine. I've used 7.5 gallon sanke kegs for 5 gallon batches and transferred to a 5 gallon keg. I'm currently using a 15.5 gallon sanke to ferment a 10 gallon batch that will go into 2 5 gallon kegs. What makes you think there would be an issue when transferring?

 

[schematix]

Could I use a 5 gallon keg to ferment a 2.5 gallon batch with this method? The SV would be a 2.5 gallon keg if possible.

I'm hoping this would allow greater head space to eliminate blow off issues. Used 5 gallon kegs are easier and cheaper to come by.

Would there be an issue during transfer because of the two different volumes?

That should work great. I can't see how you'd ever get 10" of kraussen in the FV.

This will also allow you to completely fill the 2.5 G keg.

 

[leesmith]

That would work just fine. I've used 7.5 gallon sanke kegs for 5 gallon batches and transferred to a 5 gallon keg. I'm currently using a 15.5 gallon sanke to ferment a 10 gallon batch that will go into 2 5 gallon kegs. What makes you think there would be an issue when transferring?

Wasn't sure there needed to be equal volumes of co2 and beer in order to do an entire closed transfer like the OP does...the siphon would stop or something...

 

[leesmith]

Thanks crane and schematix!
Looking forward to trying this.

 

[hio3791]

That would work just fine. I've used 7.5 gallon sanke kegs for 5 gallon batches and transferred to a 5 gallon keg. I'm currently using a 15.5 gallon sanke to ferment a 10 gallon batch that will go into 2 5 gallon kegs. What makes you think there would be an issue when transferring?

Crane, would you mind posting pics and/or explain your process and equipment that you use? I'm still trying to wrap my head around this and what you mention is exactly what I'm considering.

In another thread, I posted a link to a new keg fermenter from Williams Brewing. What do you guys think?

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[crane]

Crane, would you mind posting pics and/or explain your process and equipment that you use? I'm still trying to wrap my head around this and what you mention is exactly what I'm considering.

In another thread, I posted a link to a new keg fermenter from Williams Brewing. What do you guys think?

Here are some pictures. One thing to clarify is that I do not use the same method of closed loop gravity/siphon transfer that the OP uses. I tried it a few times and it would always stop half way through. I think there is too much restrictions in my lines and disconnects that slows the transfer down and stops.

I use the standard sanke spear and coupler with a ball lock conversion kit. I built a small blow off collection vessel out of a water filter housing. I cut down a spare sanke spear I had lying around for the center tube in the collection vessel. The size is just right that the spear will slide over the plastic top and form an airtight seal with just friction. The spunding valve is connected to the output of the water filter housing. Although I should not necessarily need a blow-off collection vessel, there have been a few times I forgot to add the anti foam drops and did get some blow-off into my spunding which clogged it all up and I had to replace it.

The key to sanke kegs is cleaning something you can't touch or see. I built a keg washer with CIP ball to accomplish cleaning and sanitizing.

I imagine the Williams fermenter is a crap ton more expensive that getting a keg off Craigslist. With my setup I don't see the advantage of the wider opening as I have already solved the challenges of cleaning.

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[hio3791]

My apologies for hijacking the thread but thank you! Did you have to modify the spear on the FV to minimize trub in the transfer to the receiving kegs?

The keg that I posted is expensive and I feel like I might be trying to solve a problem that I would be creating for myself if I go down this rabbit hole.

 

[crane]

My apologies for hijacking the thread but thank you! Did you have to modify the spear on the FV to minimize trub in the transfer to the receiving kegs?

The keg that I posted is expensive and I feel like I might be trying to solve a problem that I would be creating for myself if I go down this rabbit hole.

I have never cut down any of my dip tubes in my kegs, except for the gas tubes in the corny kegs. There really is not that much yeast that gets picked up when you transfer. I have a picnic tap connected to a small hose that I use to draw off the first cup or 2 of beer before I start the transfer. I guess I have always been in the mindset of what if I want to uncut it later down the road. You can't do that.