Potential BIAB technique for my first 5 gallon all grain batch

[mozltovcoktail]

Hi folks. I’m planning my first 5 gallon, all grain, stovetop (gas) batch, and I wanted to run through the process I’m considering using to make sure it’s solid. I’d love your feedback.

I’ve done a bunch of reading, but so far all I’ve actually done is Brooklyn Brew Shop’s 1 gallon Everyday IPA kit using the instructions in their “Beer Making Book”, so that gives you an idea of my experience level.

I want to use the BIAB method so I can minimize the equipment involved, but I also don’t want to sacrifice efficiency or the quality of my beer at all. I’ve read about a super-duper simple BIAB mash method in which you mash your grains in a bag in a single kettle with your final volume, plus the additional water that will evaporate during the mash and boil, then simply lift the bag out and move on to the boil step, but I’ve also read about two potential problems with this:

1. Your water to grain ratio is high, which can make for an overly-rich beer (not sure of the right terminology here).
2. There’s no sparge, so you lose efficiency.

So, here’s what I’m considering:

1. Mash in a bag in a 7.5 gallon kettle (let’s call this Kettle A) with a 1.5/1 water to grain ratio (I think that’s the proper ratio, right?).
2. Mash out at 170°.
3. Lift the bag from the water, allowing it to drain into Kettle A.
4. Pour the remaining volume of 170° water (is this called strike water?) from a *second* 7.5 gallon kettle (Kettle B) over the contents of the bag. At this point the full volume of my wort would be in Kettle A.
5. Move the bag over to the now empty Kettle B.
6. Recirculate wort through the bag by pouring the wort from Kettle A into Kettle B.
7. Recirculate wort through the bag again by pouring the wort from Kettle B into Kettle A.
8. Move on to the boil.

Will pouring all that water over a bag be practical? Do I need a kettle with a spout at the bottom? Am I missing anything else here?

I've also heard that mashing in a single pot with full volume works if you just add a bit more grain to the mash, but I'm not sure how much more I should add, or if that's as good as doing a partial volume mash.

Thanks in advance for your time and energy.

 

[QuercusMax]

This is what I did prior to building a cooler/stainless steel braid:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f244/my-3-vessel-biab-ag-technique-399561/

I don't think there's a point to recirculating the wort thru the bag, that seems odd. I got 78% efficiency with my system. (I get slightly higher with the toilet braid/cooler, but mostly I do it because I'm lazy and don't like lifting heavy dripping grain bags.)

 

[maf58d]

Easier to do would be to mash in first kettle for hour at 150 to 155 degrees, then as hour draws up to heat rest of water in second kettle and rinse grains in bag in second kettle for about 10 minutes at 165 to 170 degrees, then pour that in to first kettle.

 

[solbes]

I would modify it to this. If you have a second large kettle, a mashout and dunk sparge should give you the highest efficiency for a given grain crush. I do the same, but I pour the sparge water over the suspended grain bag since I don't have a large enough 2nd kettle. I get around 74% efficiency for very large grain bills to near 90% with small 7-8 lb grain bills.

Before you start, you need to figure out your pre-boil volume to hit your post boil volume (and remember you have some volume loss when the wort cools). Then figure out how much volume is lost within the grain (can't be squeezed out). And finally make sure you have at least 0.5 gallon headspace in kettle A after you add the contents of kettle B. Adjust the sparge volume water and grist ration of BIAB if necessary.

1. Mash in a bag in a 7.5 gallon kettle (let’s call this Kettle A) with a 1.5/1 water to grain ratio (I think that’s the proper ratio, right?).
2. Heat wort to mash out temps at 170°, with frequent stirring to make sure you don't over heat.
2a. Heat 2 -2.5 gallons of sparge water in Kettle B to 170F (in parallel with step 2)
3. Lift the bag from the water, allowing it to drain into Kettle A.
3a. Proceed with full heating on Kettle A towards boil (do step 4 in parallel).
4. Move bag of grain to Kettle B, and stir 2 or 3 times over 10 minutes.
5. Lift and drain bag over kettle B, squeeze bag if possible.
6. Pour wort from Kettle B into Kettle A (add first wort hops if applicable)
7. Contiue heating until you reach boiling.

If you do a full volume BIAB with no sparge, then I would simply add a pound of base malt.

 

[agrazela]

Step 1. includes the "strike" water. The temp to bring that water to (before you add in the grains) is dependent on what temp you want to mash at (lower, like 148F, for more fermentable, higher like 158F for less fermentables/more body, mid-range like 152F for balance). 1.5qt:1lb is a good ratio IME; with a 7.5gal pot, I'd expect you could do 12lb grains and 18qt water.

The step 4. water is the "sparge" (or rinse) water. IF you are just going to sit the bag over kettle A and rinse it, I'd say 170F water is a good choice. BUT...

I think your steps 5-7 are overkill; I'd recommend that instead of steps 4-7, you let the bag drain into kettle A awhile, then just do a dunk sparge of your grain bag into kettle B (with at least 6-8qt water in it, and it need not be hot), then drain (and squeeze!) the bag into kettle B, then add that back to kettle A, before moving to the boil. (More dunk water in kettle B probably get a few more points, but weigh that against desired final volume / boil time, etc.) Even after a good dunk and squeeze, you'll probably lose 3-4qts of water trapped in 12lb of grains.

If your mash pH is right and your grains are milled well, you should be able to hit 70-75% efficiency no problem. Your steps 5-7 might get you a few more efficiency percent, but IMO not worth the trouble.

EDIT: previous posters typed faster than me!

 

[RM-MN]

I'm sorry to say that you aren't really doing BIAB, your simply using a bag instead of a bazooka screen and a metal mash tun instead of a cooler. You don't need a mash out unless you are fly sparging which you aren't so forget heating to 170. Sugar is only slightly more soluble at 170 than 150 so you aren't gaining much from that either.

If your grain is milled fine for BIAB, you don't need to add any grain. In my experience you need to subtract grain because the finely milled grain gets you higher efficiency.

BIAB was intended to make life easier by making mashing simpler. Put all the water you need into the pot, heat it to strike temp. Set the bag into that pot of water and stir in the grains that are milled finely and let them sit there until the end of the mash period which doesn't need to be a full hour because with your finely milled grains it doesn't take an hour to wet the grains, convert the starches to sugars, and leach it all back out. 30 minutes seems to suffice. Pull the bag of grains out, squeeze out all the wort you can and start heating to boil. ONE POT, ONE BAG, ONE PROCESS. You're making a simple process into a mess.

If the pot you have isn't big enough for the entire amount of water needed plus the grains, then you modify by using as much water as you can with the grains and then making up for the water needed by adding a sparge step. That can be as simple as pouring water over the bag of grains and squeezing it out again.

 

[mozltovcoktail]

RM-MN, that is so appealing! If I can brew a 5 gallon batch in one pot without adding extra grains and get good efficiency, that would be fantastic.

I don't have a pot big enough, but I'm willing to make that investment. I'll probably get an 8 gallon pot, which I'm reading is ideal for a 5 gallon batch. I may still also invest in a second, slightly smaller pot (so the pots nest for storage) and try some dunk sparging. I've yet to make up my mind on that. I really don't want to sacrifice efficiency, and I'm still concerned about mashing with a high water to grains ratio.

I've never taken any sort of measurements (efficiency, gravity, etc...), but I think I'd like to so that I have some data points. That's a whole other thing to learn about, and equipment to buy.

 

[solbes]

We go round and round on mash out w/ sparge for BIAB and efficiencies. Full volume BIAB is simpler, I can't argue that. Not wanting to get back into that here.

I did want to comment that if you think you will be doing BIAB long term, I would go with a pot larger than 8 gallons. I would say 10 is the minimum I would buy if I were starting from scratch. With an 8, you will not have sufficient volume in the pot to do the larger brews. 1.065 -1.070 would be about your max. I have done some partial mash brewing when I go over that, by adding LME as late boil additions. The extra money you spend on extract could have been put into a larger pot.

 

[acidrain]

We go round and round on mash out w/ sparge for BIAB and efficiencies. Full volume BIAB is simpler, I can't argue that. Not wanting to get back into that here.

I did want to comment that if you think you will be doing BIAB long term, I would go with a pot larger than 8 gallons. I would say 10 is the minimum I would buy if I were starting from scratch. With an 8, you will not have sufficient volume in the pot to do the larger brews. 1.065 -1.070 would be about your max. I have done some partial mash brewing when I go over that, by adding LME as late boil additions. The extra money you spend on extract could have been put into a larger pot.

Agreed... building a tun out of a keg is probably the cheapest, most utilitarian thing you could do for this process. You'll need to wrap whatever you use with a blanket or something to keep the heat in. Don't try to heat it with a flame to maintain temp or mash out... you'll just scorch something.

 

[RM-MN]

RM-MN, that is so appealing! If I can brew a 5 gallon batch in one pot without adding extra grains and get good efficiency, that would be fantastic.

I don't have a pot big enough, but I'm willing to make that investment. I'll probably get an 8 gallon pot, which I'm reading is ideal for a 5 gallon batch. I may still also invest in a second, slightly smaller pot (so the pots nest for storage) and try some dunk sparging. I've yet to make up my mind on that. I really don't want to sacrifice efficiency, and I'm still concerned about mashing with a high water to grains ratio.

I've never taken any sort of measurements (efficiency, gravity, etc...), but I think I'd like to so that I have some data points. That's a whole other thing to learn about, and equipment to buy.

Why don't you give this a try with the pot you have but do a half size batch, you know, proof of concept or something like that. If your pot is 5 gallons or bigger this will work and all you need to get is a paint strainer bag. It can be done with a 4 gallon pot but that's kind of stretching the limits of the pot.

 

[Spartangreen]

I use this link http://www.simplebiabcalculator.com/

For calculating my water volume. Its spot on.
You will have your full boil volume after removing the bag with the grains. There is no sparging. Unless you want to.
I don't pay attention to the water to grain ratio, my eff is 75-80%

 

[mozltovcoktail]

The biggest pot I have is 3 gallons, unfortunately. Plus, I have my heart set on a 5 gallon batch, so doing a smaller batch as a proof of concept doesn't really appeal to me, but it's a good suggestion.

Building a mash tun out of a cooler is something I may do eventually, but I'm making an effort to minimize the gear I buy/build right now since I'm just getting into this hobby and don't want to go overboard, as I tend to sometimes do. I am concerned that I'll scorch something by keeping the mash on the stove the whole time, but I suppose I'm willing to learn the hard way on that one, and hopefully I can avoid any scorching at all.

After reading all of these very helpful replies, I'm debating between two options:

1. Do a full volume BIAB mash using finely-milled grains in a single pot.

2. Do a full volume BIAB mash using an extra pound of regularly-milled grains in a single pot.

3. Do a partial volume mash in a bag in an 8 gallon pot, while heating up the remaining water in a 10 gallon pot in parallel, then do a dunk sparge in the 10 gallon pot, then combine the wort from both pots in the 10 gallon pot, possibly even pouring the wort from the 8 gallon into the 10 gallon through the bag (since I'll be pouring it from one pot to the other anyway).

I know that ultimately the decision is mine, but do both of these options at least seem sane?

In terms of cooling, my only real option without buying more equipment is an ice bath in my kitchen sink. I'm trying to think of ways to speed this up. One idea I had was dipping a sterilized trash bag full of ice into the wort, but I don't know if there's some reason I shouldn't do that.

 

[mozltovcoktail]

Thanks for the link, Spartangreen.

It seems like there are as many opinions about how much sparging and your water/grain ratio matter as there are people on this forum. I'm digging learning about them all!

 

[RM-MN]

Here's a possible change for you.

3. Do a partial volume mash in the 8 gallon pot, then do a dunk sparge in a fermenter bucket with cold water. You're efficiency will be nearly the same and you won't have to buy a 10 gallon pot.

There, I just saved you enough money with not buying that 10 gallon pot to do 4 all grain batches of beer.

 

[agrazela]

In terms of cooling, my only real option without buying more equipment is an ice bath in my kitchen sink. I'm trying to think of ways to speed this up. One idea I had was dipping a sterilized trash bag full of ice into the wort, but I don't know if there's some reason I shouldn't do that.

Sterilized bag of ice dipped into the wort sounds like a good way to spill over the pot to me.

Make sure you got a nice big sink, my 5gal kettle is as big as will fit in my kitchen sink ice bath. 5gal kettle also is as big as will fit in my oven (I do the in-oven mash thing). When doing more than about a 1.050pt all-grain (or 1.070pt partial-mash / partial-extract) 5-gal BIAB batch with my minimal equipment, I wind up doing it in two half-batches. Takes longer, but it works. That is an option if you REALLY want to minimize equipment investment. Of course, if you do go with a 10gal kettle, you could get one of those 20gal plastic tubs to use for an ice bath. But that's a lot of ice!

One way to help cool is to calculate for, say, winding up with 4 gal of wort for your 5 gal batch, then topping that up with 1 gal water that's been chilling in the fridge overnight. Greatly cuts down on what your kitchen sink ice bath has to do for you.