Post your infection
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RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
It's obviously a pellicle. They're no way to identify the contaminating organism(s) by looking.
However, acetone (ethyl acetate actually) generally points toward other organism(s), not Brett. Pichia yeast for example is widespread and notorious for that off-flavor.
FYI that "acetone" won't age out and blending won't be helpful. You should dump it unless you can somehow tolerate drinking it (eww).
Too much oxygen exposure! Perhaps the bucket had a bad seal?
This is actually a rye wash for a rye whisky. Im not sure if the flavour will transfer through in the d****ling (not allowed to talk about this here I think?) process, but I know that some people go through the process regardless and actually like the final product. But it’s harder to find info on that.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
No idea about that, sorry.
Ethyl acetate boils at 171°F though for what that's worth, so it'll be in the "heads"?
I gave it a little taste, and its mostly just super sour, but doesn't have those awful rotten flavours that can accompany bad infections. The infection happened early on so it only went down to 1.02 or so, but I think I'll continue on and see what happens. If this were a beer, though, it would definitely go down the drain.
Edit: And yes, I just read the same thing about the distilling temp. Fingers crossed. Some people swear that if the mash is soured but doesn't taste like baby diapers it will create a much better product.
Edit: And yes, I just read the same thing about the distilling temp. Fingers crossed. Some people swear that if the mash is soured but doesn't taste like baby diapers it will create a much better product.
I believe I have two batches of beer infected. When I checked their gravity at the beginning of the week they looked fine, some yeast rafts, and around the final gravity I expected. When I went to take another gravity reading to confirm fermentation was complete I was surprised that both batches appeared infected now. I did notice one smelled a little vinegary.
Triticale Ale (50/50 triticale/Pilsner) last reading 1.017
Wheat Ale (50/50 Wheat/Pilsner) last reading 1.009
Triticale Ale (50/50 triticale/Pilsner) last reading 1.017
Wheat Ale (50/50 Wheat/Pilsner) last reading 1.009
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RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Thank you, I was mainly looking to confirm what I assumed.
Questions I have:
1. Being plastic fermenter, can I just clean, sanitize, and reuse? Or are the fermenters done for?
2. Are both infections the same, or different?
dwhite60
Well-Known Member
1. Buckets are cheap. They're a lot less than the cost of dumping another infected batch.
2. Can't help you.
All the Best,
D. White
2. Can't help you.
All the Best,
D. White
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
A good cleaning should be sufficient.
I suggest a warm PBW soak and a warm acid rinse, rinsing with warm water before and after each. Make sure everything gets disassembled for cleaning so nothing hides in the cracks. Never use anything abrasive on plastic; scratches are bad.
Sanitize before use as normal.
Evaluate your entire cold-side process for possible sources of contamination.
There's no way to know without extensive microbiological testing.
Not all plastic fermenters are buckets. Some are rather expensive actually.
For what it's worth I routinely use the same plastic gear for wild fermentations and clean fermentations.
If you do try to clean and sanitize the plastic fermenter make your next brew an inexpensive one. Maybe just a SMaSH pale ale. 2-row and lightly hopped with an inexpensive hop.
I have not had an infection but most say that once a plastic fermenter or other parts have been exposed to infective microbes you are hit or miss on being able to use it again.
I have not had an infection but most say that once a plastic fermenter or other parts have been exposed to infective microbes you are hit or miss on being able to use it again.
Thank you all for the responses. Thinking back at my cold side process, I soaked/sprayed/wiped everything down with StarSan, as I always do. The only time I can think I may have not sanitized well enough was when taking a sample.
None the less, thanks for the confirmations, I've got everything soaking and will be doing a couple simple brews to see how they go.
None the less, thanks for the confirmations, I've got everything soaking and will be doing a couple simple brews to see how they go.
dwhite60
Well-Known Member
Spent the last three days reading through this entire thread. Things I've learned:
1. Do not dry hop in muslin bags. Better yet, don't dry hop in a secondary.
2. Do not secondary unless you can get the volume of liquid fully into the neck of the receiving carboy.
3. Do not secondary in buckets, only use vessels with a reduced neck, like a carboy.
4. Better yet, don't secondary.
5. You can never be too anal about cleanliness.
6. If it is infected your better off trashing the fermenter if it's plastic so, cover it and let it ride for a few months until the gravity is stable and try it. If it's not drinkable you're out nothing but you may have a happy accident!
7. Valves are like mules. They'll be your best friend for years until they get the right opportunity to kick you.
All the Best,
D. White
1. Do not dry hop in muslin bags. Better yet, don't dry hop in a secondary.
2. Do not secondary unless you can get the volume of liquid fully into the neck of the receiving carboy.
3. Do not secondary in buckets, only use vessels with a reduced neck, like a carboy.
4. Better yet, don't secondary.
5. You can never be too anal about cleanliness.
6. If it is infected your better off trashing the fermenter if it's plastic so, cover it and let it ride for a few months until the gravity is stable and try it. If it's not drinkable you're out nothing but you may have a happy accident!
7. Valves are like mules. They'll be your best friend for years until they get the right opportunity to kick you.
All the Best,
D. White
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
You must have skipped my posts.
dwhite60
Well-Known Member
You must have skipped my posts.
3882 posts in this thread.
Yeah, I might not have remembered yours in particular.
All the Best,
D. White
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Well, here are my thoughts, if you're interested...
I use wild microbes, Brett, and bacteria a lot. I don't segregate equipment.
However, keep in mind that often a contamination is only discovered by the presence of a pellicle. Pellicles only form in the presence of oxygen. Therefore if a beer is contaminated but not exposed to oxygen (secondary or dry hopping), no pellicle will form and the brewer may never realized the batch was contaminated. It's the presence of oxygen that gives the contamination away.
A lot more batches are contaminated than people realize.
Plastic can be cleaned and sanitized as well as any other brewing equipment. The only limitation is that you shouldn't use any abrasive material to scrub it.
Alkaline cleaning products commonly used for homebrewing (e.g. PBW) are effective at both removing and killing potential contaminants. The sanitizers we use are effective at killing any microbes on clean surfaces.
To avoid contamination, these products just need to be used properly and you need to use good sanitary technique when dealing with the wort/beer.
Even without wild microbes, beer sitting in the fermenter for months will oxidize, which is not great for flavor (although opinions vary on this). Also, most wild microbes do not produce desirable flavors in beer, especially with oxygen present.
Sour beers made with a good process and with the right mix of microbes are very delicious, but any random beer with random wild microbes likely won't taste very good.
I use wild microbes, Brett, and bacteria a lot. I don't segregate equipment.
Definitely true. Using a secondary vessel increases oxygen exposure, and provides no benefit. The risk of contamination increases exponentially every time an additional piece of equipment contacts the wort/beer on the cold side.
However, keep in mind that often a contamination is only discovered by the presence of a pellicle. Pellicles only form in the presence of oxygen. Therefore if a beer is contaminated but not exposed to oxygen (secondary or dry hopping), no pellicle will form and the brewer may never realized the batch was contaminated. It's the presence of oxygen that gives the contamination away.
A lot more batches are contaminated than people realize.
Have you ever used a plastic piece of brewing equipment? It's 100% guaranteed that the item had wild microbes on at some point before you used it. If we followed the advice to throw it away if it comes into contact with wild microbes, we would throw away all the plastic before ever using it.
Plastic can be cleaned and sanitized as well as any other brewing equipment. The only limitation is that you shouldn't use any abrasive material to scrub it.
Alkaline cleaning products commonly used for homebrewing (e.g. PBW) are effective at both removing and killing potential contaminants. The sanitizers we use are effective at killing any microbes on clean surfaces.
To avoid contamination, these products just need to be used properly and you need to use good sanitary technique when dealing with the wort/beer.
Most contaminated beers don't have off-flavors. It's completely fine to package them as normal. If bottling, monitor carbonation, because there's a small chance of over-carbonation.
Even without wild microbes, beer sitting in the fermenter for months will oxidize, which is not great for flavor (although opinions vary on this). Also, most wild microbes do not produce desirable flavors in beer, especially with oxygen present.
Sour beers made with a good process and with the right mix of microbes are very delicious, but any random beer with random wild microbes likely won't taste very good.
Disassemble everything for proper cleaning, at least periodically.
I don't get into the science but have read that some microbes form a bio-film that's nearly impossible to get through when in a plastic bucket. I had an infection (contamination) once, and cleaning and bleaching wouldn't get rid of it. I finally replaced the plastic and had no more problems. What's your feeling about bio-films?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
While I can't speak from experience, I know there are some cases where plastic/rubber parts can't easily be cleaned and need to be replaced. Microbes do adhere more easily to plastic surfaces. It's unclear whether these cases are due to particular strains of tenacious microbes, some kind of malformation or scratching on the plastic surface, or improper/inadequate cleaning practice. However it's not typical to need to replace everything plastic from what I've seen.
When to make the determination to scrap it or "dedicate to sours" is up to each individual of course. I suggest trying to clean a fermenter one time and if the next batch is also contaminated then it's time for a new one. I wouldn't hesitate to replace a cheap spigot or gaskets after a contamination. Also be sure to clean and/or eliminate other sources of contamination. Sometimes people replace their fermenters/plastics and the next batch still gets contaminated from some other source.
Milk the Funk has a lot of info about biofilms:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Quality_Assurance#Biofilms
I want to point out that biofilm formation takes time. That's an incentive to package your beer within a minimal timeframe after fermentation completes. It's also a great reason to rinse and clean everything immediately after use and keep equipment clean between uses.
Personally I use a warm PBW soak (not just Oxiclean) followed by a warm citric acid rinse (water rinses before and after each). This sort of mimics the standard commercial brewery process, but less dangerous. So far, it's been effective for controlling all the wild microbes that I've used.
HDPE (e.g. buckets and most spigots) and rubber (including silicone) can be heated with water above Pasteurization temperatures as an additional measure if needed, like after a contamination.
Cheers
Last edited:
RPh_Guy: Interesting and useful thoughts. Thanks.
Localhopper
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My Oktoberfast ale I brewed it in early September and let it set in the garage to “lager” as the temp dropped. Well was looking forward to kegging it but now it’s infected it’s my first infection and I tasted it there is a slight paint thinner hint to it not the best so most likely gonna dump it although the thought of letting it age for another 6-8 months to see if the wild stuff does anything good could be cool too
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
"Paint thinner" or "nail polish" is likely high levels of ethyl acetate (generally attributed to Pichia + excess oxygen). If that's the case, it won't age out; it only gets worse. Personally I wouldn't bother trying to age it; it'll just make the plastic harder to clean .
dwhite60
Well-Known Member
I was told to test the probiotics you're taking and spending good money on. Boiled two tablespoons of honey in a cup of spring water, added some yeast nutrient (diammonium phosphate) and pitched a capsule. It's been room temp so growing slowly. Does seem viable though.
All the Best,
D. White
Not sure if I got an infection or not, and may be paranoid after my first. Used Hornidal Kivek yeast on this one.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Yes, that's a pellicle, indicating the presence of wild microbes (yeast and/or bacteria).
When taking a sample for a gravity reading, it tasted alright. Is it worth keeping around, or dumping?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I'm of the opinion that you should go ahead and package it if there aren't off-flavors. Seems like most of the time the beer turns out fine.
If bottling you need to monitor for possible over-carbonation.
Clean everything thoroughly and review your process for possible sources of contamination.
ajbosley2015
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Surely looks like the beginning of a pellicle: the broken-ice-like haze, and the white dots and strands forming at 1:00.
Bottle, let carbonate up and stick in fridge. Drink fast.
Stop using secondaries: a) they don't solve anything, b) can cause oxidation and infections. Dry hop in "primary," the one and only fermenter you need.
ajbosley2015
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it’s actually a bad picture unfortunately. The white dots are actually from the flash and appear to be nucleation sites.
Removed the 2nd hop bag yesterday and it looks like this today.
on this batch, I had to rack because o had to get the beer off of the hops from boil, hop stand and whirlpool to reduce bitterness and grassy notes...but duly noted!
thanks
Did you transfer these hops to the primary fermenter? If so, why? If not, once the wort is cooled they are no longer adding any bitterness. Grassy is often caused by dry hopping for too long.
