Post your infection

[IslandLizard]

beer still tasted good so racked it off the yeast, pasteurised it, chilled it then popped it into a sanitised FV with a tonne of dry hops
fingers crossed.

Heat pasteurization, depending on temperature and duration, may kill the "bugs" but also (negatively) affect how the beer tastes. I've never tried it, or read much about it. Please let us know how that panned out.

That bucket needs a through cleaning...
I would use hot (homemade) PBW or Oxiclean (Free), scrubbing/rubbing the insides with a non-scratching nylon brush, non-abrasive (scouring) pad or washcloth. You don't want to scratch it, just have some extra friction when rubbing to remove any biofilm that may cling to the walls, bottom, rim, etc. Don't forget the lid, and groove.

You could add a small amount (~1/4 tsp per gallon) of Lye (drain opener) to your PBW/Oxi for some extra oomph, but beware, wear proper face/eye protection and rubber gloves when using lye, even diluted, it's very caustic. It dissolves skin and even a small splash in the eye needs to be washed out immediately and thoroughly, and requires immediate doctor's attention as it could cause blindness.

Then after rinsing, some "bleach bombing" afterward, and/or set outside propped, so bright sunlight can shine inside on all sides. UV light kills lots of nasties. Right now I have 2 buckets outside, propped under a ~45° angle facing the bright midday sun for over a week. Probably overkill, but I want to make sure. After transferring the beer, I hadn't cleaned them right away, and forgot about them, then discovered something nasty started growing inside...

 

[tracer bullet]

So my RIS that's been aging for about 5-6 months is rapidly changing. I think I have a sour RIS.

It's been sitting under the stairs minding it's own business, with me pulling an occasional sample with a little post mounted tap (was originally pressurized to about 15 psi so I could do this once a month or so). I enjoyed tasting it slowly evolve and was excited to really get into it this winter.

A few weeks ago though the pressure started going up on its own, and after watching this continue to happen my last sample tastes more like a sour beer combined with an RIS. Gravity is dropping too, was at 1.026 originally and is at 1.018 and dropping. I popped the top and it looks normal, nothing floating on it.

Any thoughts? Is it safe to sample? I am guessing I'll dump it, thoroughly clean it, replace all the O-rings, and I guess just be more careful next time. What a drag, lots of time and $'s will probably go down the drain.

 

[IslandLizard]

So my RIS that's been aging for about 5-6 months is rapidly changing. I think I have a sour RIS.

[...] Any thoughts? Is it safe to sample? I am guessing I'll dump it,

Yeah, surely sounds like it.

[Edits]
Basically, fermented goods such as beer, even when (unintentionally) infected, are usually safe to consume, because nothing can grow in beer that can harm you. Mold is an exception, no fooling around with that. But it's extremely rare to get mold growth in a fully fermented beer, and it won't taste sour, from what I understand.

Intentionally soured beers can be truly delicious, but the accidental ones are more of a crapshoot flavor/aroma wise, as many incidental bugs that cause infections just don't make good beer.

I've had some unintentionally soured stouts and RIS that were wonderful, possibly on par or even better than their clean version would have been. The long term aging process at ambient temps brings out your sanitation flaws more than a kegerator/keezer stored beer would.

If the sour beer is appealing to you or someone who appreciates, put it in your keezer/kegerator to arrest or slow down the souring process, and drink it.

If it's disgusting, well cut your losses, and brew a new one. But before you do, find out what may have caused the infection. It's very unlikely something got inside your keg after you filled, closed and carbonated it. But a tainted rubber diptube o-ring or lid gasket, or uncleaned PRV could show it's ugly head. So can racking tubing, or perhaps something got into your fermenter.

Oh, that keg once it's empty, needs to be thoroughly cleaned, every piece of it that touches or gets close to your beer.

 

[Ridenour64]

Does this starter look a little off to anyone? It’s on a stir plate and no longer looks like this so I can’t get anymore photos. I am also not a good judge of smell right now, or taste (covid).

*I cleaned with a bit of oxyclean and tsp.
*there was a bit of a residue in the flask that I just couldn’t get out. So I put star San in it, then vinegar and neither worked. So I put more oxy and tsp and let it soak for an hour. At the end there was still a bit of the residue, but I would be boiling in the flask so I didn’t think it would be a big deal. I was using a brush as well. Very stubborn deposit
*this starter was made using all grain. 1.5 lbs of grain for 4L of water
*boiled for roughly 10 min

 

[IslandLizard]

Does this starter look a little off to anyone? It’s on a stir plate and no longer looks like this so I can’t get anymore photos. I am also not a good judge of smell right now, or taste (covid).

Those large slimy bubbles are surely suspicious of some pellicle formation, pointing to a possible infection.

Very stubborn deposit
*this starter was made using all grain. 1.5 lbs of grain for 4L of water
*boiled for roughly 10 min

One would expect that after all the scrubbing and the wort boil anything clinging to the inside of that flask is dead as can be. But it's not sterilized. Moreover, you can't sanitize dirt.

It's possible a contamination still lingered or something got into your yeast or starter.
Any grain dust that could have gotten in?

Although many homebrewers boil in glass flasks, I prefer hard boils in a stainless pot. Chill in the sink or a tub with cold water. Then pour into a well sanitized flask or glass jar. And over the years I've had some infected starters too.

You can let it stand for a few days at room temps and see if or how it develops. But chances are you don't want to pitch it anyway.
You could wash it with Chlorine Dioxide, but it won't kill everything, such as anaerobic microorganisms.

Sorry about your COVID infection playing havoc with your olfactory senses, a real bummer! I hope you recover from it with time.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Moreover, you can't sanitize dirt.

Sure you can. Bake it at 400F for an hour or twelve, it'll be sanitized!

 

[Dgallo]

Does this starter look a little off to anyone? It’s on a stir plate and no longer looks like this so I can’t get anymore photos. I am also not a good judge of smell right now, or taste (covid).

*I cleaned with a bit of oxyclean and tsp.
*there was a bit of a residue in the flask that I just couldn’t get out. So I put star San in it, then vinegar and neither worked. So I put more oxy and tsp and let it soak for an hour. At the end there was still a bit of the residue, but I would be boiling in the flask so I didn’t think it would be a big deal. I was using a brush as well. Very stubborn deposit
*this starter was made using all grain. 1.5 lbs of grain for 4L of water
*boiled for roughly 10 min

I don’t like the look of those bubbles. Looks similar to an infection. I’d personally not risk it and toss the starter

 

[Ridenour64]

It’s nearly impossible to get a good picture, but I see something floating in there that resembles a piece of hair or some other type of debris. I’m also wondering if it would be a piece of grain, but it’s looking more like a piece of hair to me..

 

[Ridenour64]

What a shame that a few hours of effort and materials (more so a brew day) can be wasted due to a small, unavoidable piece of debris floating in the air lol .

 

[IslandLizard]

It’s nearly impossible to get a good picture, but I see something floating in there that resembles a piece of hair or some other type of debris. I’m also wondering if it would be a piece of grain, but it’s looking more like a piece of hair to me..

A piece of grain husk maybe? Any clue where or how something like that may have dropped in, after the boil?

 

[Ridenour64]

A piece of grain husk maybe? Any clue where or how something like that may have dropped in, after the boil?

Not really. During the active boiling of the wort I leave the top of the flask uncovered because of the positive pressure, nothing would fall in (at least that’s what I thought.) after, I cover in foil and put it in a bucket with ice and water. After the cooling, I remove the foil and pitched the yeast. I’m very on top of washing my hands and sanitizing any time im removing the foil or handling anything. I do have dogs though so there is always that type of debris around the house.

 

[IslandLizard]

*this starter was made using all grain. 1.5 lbs of grain for 4L of water
*boiled for roughly 10 min

I wonder if 10' boiling inside that flask is enough to kill all the bugs from the grain and mash. Boiling in a glass flask is quite tedious, while the top section may not quite get at boiling temps, it works more like a condensor.

Which yeast is that? Fresh, ranched, or harvested?

 

[Ridenour64]

I wonder if 10' boiling inside that flask is enough to kill all the bugs from the grain and mash. Boiling in a glass flask is quite tedious, while the top section may not quite get at boiling temps, it works more like a condensor.

Which yeast is that? Fresh, ranched, or harvested?

That was a fresh pack of WLP066. But yeah maybe I should have boiled longer. So I ordered a wilser bag for my small (maybe 2 gallon) kitchen pot. I have my grain mill cranked down really as far down as it will go (a credit card will squeeze through). It’s kinda disturbing to me how much flour sifts through the bag. This was the murkiest starter I have ever seen. I have always fermented in stainless so I never really see my beer after it’s transferred to my fermenter, but I definitely understand the desire to transfer clear wort after seeing this. (This is my first all grain starter)

 

[Ridenour64]

it’s back at it. Yeah that looks gross.

 

[Okie81]

Hi. I’m new to brewing and this was my 3rd brew. The first two came out perfect however this Irish blond ale is forming white dandruff in the secondary after almost 4 weeks. It was in the primary for 2 weeks. Was curious if this is a byproduct of the reactions or scary mold.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm not an expert but I think this batch might be infected. Smells incredible tho, think I'll ride it out.

 

[Okie81]

I'm not an expert but I think this batch might be infected. Smells incredible tho, think I'll ride it out.

View attachment 754787View attachment 754788

So hard to do but yea haven’t seen something like that yet.

 

[IslandLizard]

Hi. I’m new to brewing and this was my 3rd brew. The first two came out perfect however this Irish blond ale is forming white dandruff in the secondary after almost 4 weeks. It was in the primary for 2 weeks. Was curious if this is a byproduct of the reactions or scary mold.

It's hard to tell from the 2 photos, but it could well be (small) yeast rafts floating on the surface. Outgassing tends to bring small amounts of yeast to the surface.

Many pellicles start out as a slight haze, thickening up every day. Or developing into bigger "slimy" bubbles, as pellicles increase surface tension. Such as in @Jayjay1976's post, below yours.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm not an expert but I think this batch might be infected.

Ya think?

Smells incredible tho, think I'll ride it out.

Whatcha got to lose?
You could slow down the infection development by kegging it and keeping the beer as cold as possible while enjoying it. She's been going on for a while already, from the looks of it.

Or let her ride. Chances are she may get more sour and develop other flavors and aromas. Could be wonderful. Is that a Stout?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Ya think?


Whatcha got to lose?
You could slow down the infection development by kegging it and keeping the beer as cold as possible while enjoying it. She's been going on for a while already, from the looks of it.

Or let her ride. Chances are she may get more sour and develop other flavors and aromas. Could be wonderful. Is that a Stout?

Hah, its not even a batch of beer, well not really. I brewed up a mostly corn mash with some 6-row, using quick grits which I mistook for instant grits. Needless to say, the conversion was incomplete and the wash SG came up a bit short; after draining the spent grain I couldn't just toss all those half-used grits so I dumped them into a clean bucket and topped it up with water, stirred in some dry yeast and put it in a plastic tote bin planning to come back in a week or so to see what I could make from whatever was left.

Fast forward several weeks over the holidays and I suddenly remembered this little experiment hidden away in the laundry room, so I very cautiously peeked under the lid. To my surprise I saw the lunar landscape you see above and was greeted with a wonderfully tart, sour aroma that immediately stirred my appetite for a sour ale. The bucket is probably ruined, the wire handle has rusted so I'll clean it up and relegate it to washing up duties.

I'll carry out the straining, filtering and distilling this weekend to see what I can make of it; the acids produced by what must be some type of lacto should create some interesting esters that will hopefully carry over into the distillate. I can't imagine what all might have been living on the malt and the grits, since I pulled the grain at about 168f before ramping up for a brief boil I would think just a few hardy critters were left intact.

 

[Ridenour64]

I just made a new starter last night and went down this morning and saw 2 pieces of my dogs hair on it. I can’t win.

 

[Ridenour64]

So this one is creating larger bubbles as well that stick around for a while but then burst. I’m wondering if it’s just because the stir bar is brining all the small bubbles to the center and causing them to combine into what’s seen.

I’m fairly confident that the only opportunity for hair to have gotten into it was during the one hour mash on the stove. I open and stir a few times over the course of an hour. Then I transfer to flask and boil. Once it’s into the flask, I assume risk for debris entry is minimal.

apparently I need to immediately shower, and put on a fresh pair of clothes prior to making a starter. Dang dogs.

Thoughts?

 

[IslandLizard]

So this one is creating larger bubbles as well that stick around for a while but then burst. I’m wondering if it’s just because the stir bar is brining all the small bubbles to the center and causing them to combine into what’s seen.

[...]

Thoughts?

Yes, that's a bubble from the stir bar. Starter looks good so far, and no signs of a pellicle!

I’m fairly confident that the only opportunity for hair to have gotten into it was during the one hour mash on the stove. I open and stir a few times over the course of an hour. Then I transfer to flask and boil. Once it’s into the flask, I assume risk for debris entry is minimal.

How do you separate the wort from the grain? Wouldn't any hair and fur stay with the grain, not in the strained liquid (wort)?

I totally understand the issue with dogs. We have 2 Shelties, their fur is everywhere... and some gets airborne. We're also wearing it.
I brew in the kitchen. When heating water for the mash, there are always a few fine strands of fur floating on top. I pick em out whenever I can, even knowing they won't make it into the boil after lautering.

But the fermenter is a different story. After sanitizing the lid is left on. It gets filled through the 1" access hole I drilled into the lid.

 

[Ridenour64]

I’m using a wilser bag on a 8QT pot. Not sure if the hair can squeeze through the bag or maybe before / after the bag is placed or pulled. So frustrating.

I take brew days very seriously lol. Fresh shower, clothes, hair free . I guess I need to start doing this for starter day too. I also have brew days in my basement where my dogs don’t spent as much time. Maybe all grain starters aren’t the way. If this starter is infected I may move to dry yeast and no starters until my luck changes.

I ferment in a 15 gallon torpedo keg. I’ve been thinking of ways to keep a closed system at flameout. Transferring through a ball lock post would probably not be ideal though. I also use an immersion chiller which keeps me kettle open. I have been thinking of upgrading to a counter flow chiller. I have a stainless jaded chiller currently.

 

[Jayjay1976]

No dog hair here but we have two cats; however I brew in the attached garage where they are not allowed specifically to minimize fur contamination. Ditto on the hot shower and fresh clothes on brew days, also brush my teeth and use listerine after reading here about another brewer who identified breathing over kettle and fermenter as a potential vector for infection. Sleeves stay rolled up, dipping hands frequently in sanitizer then wiping hands/forearms with wet paper towels. Can't be too careful.

Also, my wife knows full well no scooping of litter, running the vacuum cleaner, or anything else that raises dust until after the yeast has been pitched and the fermenter is sealed up.

Could you install an immersion chiller through the lid? Drop that on just before flame out to sanitize before switching on the coolant flow.

I too like to keep the lid on the fermenter once it's been sanitized, and transfer from the kettle valve with a short length of silicone tubing through a hole in the lid, and drape a sanitizer-soaked paper towel over the lid hole to minimize the gaps.

 

[Ridenour64]

It’s just sitting there, looking at me.

 

[Ridenour64]

I’m brewing on a electric /220V system. I also have a detached garage on a house that I don’t planning staying in forever so I don’t think it’s worth it to make a run to the garage. I would love to brew in my garage and away from pets. I have thought about buying a propane setup until I move to a home that has a better set up for this.

I have thought about plumbing my immersion chiller to the lid.

 

[IslandLizard]

Also, my wife knows full well no scooping of litter, running the vacuum cleaner, or anything else that raises dust until after the yeast has been pitched and the fermenter is sealed up.

I also turn the AC/heat pump off on the thermostat when working with yeast and infection-critical things. I expect Brett to live in the duct work, but likely something way worse.

 

[IslandLizard]

I’m brewing on a electric /220V system. I also have a detached garage on a house that I don’t planning staying in forever so I don’t think it’s worth it to make a run to the garage. I would love to brew in my garage and away from pets. I have thought about buying a propane setup until I move to a home that has a better set up for this.

Once you brew electric you never want to go back to gas. At least not on a regular basis.

I'd filter that wort as it goes into your well cleaned and sanitized flask. A coffee filter would do or a funnel lined with a piece of voile. Try to reduce the even small chance of a featherlight strand of fur making it into your starter wort.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] and drape a sanitizer-soaked paper towel over the lid hole to minimize the gaps.

Similarly here.
I have a whole bunch of dedicated small, thinnish cotton washcloths (Dollar store) that live in my Starsan bucket for just that purpose. Also used for mopping the inside of buckets, funnels, lids, etc. It prefer the "scrubbing/mopping" over merely spraying onto surfaces, and it generates a thick foamy film that stays on, even vertical surfaces.

Those same washcloths cover the wide open mouths of pickle jars and flasks while waiting to be filled or while being oxygenated.