Possibly a silly question - but I gotta ask it.

[bernardsmith]

I am basically a wine /mead maker and make very small batches of beer from time to time. I am experimenting at the moment using DME (1 lb) with the same yeast (belle saison) but with different single varieties of hops. My question: I have been fermenting in a glass single gallon carboy but would much prefer to ferment in a plastic bucket (much like I generally do when I make mead) When mead making I do not seal the bucket as I often need to add nutrients and degas during active fermentation. With brewing, how critical is it to ensure that the bucket will be "sealed"? And how much of a problem is there, if I do have to seal the bucket, that there will be a large amount of headroom? (clearly during the most active phase the CO2 will fill the headroom but I generally allow the beer to sit in the carboy 3 weeks - so for about 1 week or so there will be no CO2 produced by the yeast... Is fermenting in a 2 gallon bucket a bad idea? My reason for preferring to use a bucket is that there is a spigot and that makes bottling far easier..
Thanks

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You have asked the $64,000 question. Today's brewers are down right pedantic about sanitation and airlocks. But for hundreds of years breweries didn't understand these things, yet made beer.

Traquir House (for but one example) made their world class ale(s) in open vessels (with simple trap door hinged lids) until relatively quite recently.

My flame suit is on.

 

[morbster]

Here is my take on it:

Sealing is not required, nor recommended. I look for something that will provide a pretty good seal to prevent bugs and air intake, but not anything air tight so that my CO2 can leave the vessel.

A bucket will be fine, since the headspace will be filled with CO2, as you mentioned. However, bear in mind that the more frequently you open the lid, the higher the risk of developing a detectable level of oxidation in your beer.

 

[Morrey]

Farmhouse Ales in Belgium were often fermented in shallow, open-air fermenters in the attics of their barns or homes. Todays modern brewers still emulate this style but go to lengths to have a semi-sanitized area to control things that may potentially spoil the beer making it unsellable in a commercial application.

If we went back in time, I wonder what a Saison in open fermentation would taste like? I bet they varied from farm to farm depending on what wild yeast strain got a foothold first.

 

[bernardsmith]

Many , many thanks for your responses. I think I am going to bite this bullet and opt for my bucket. Worst that can happen is I will have a gallon of cardboard flavored beer to add to my compost. Best possible scenario? I will have a lovely saison, that will have taken me all of about an hour to prepare and easily bottled using the spigot.

 

[morbster]

I originally missed your mention of the yeast. A saison has so many flavors and esters going on that I wouldn't be concerned about oxidation. You'll be fine.

 

[z-bob]

I just bottled my first attempt at fermenting beer in a bucket. I did not use an air lock, just had a lid on top (but not snapped down) to keep bugs out and slow way down the air exchange. Fermented it just over 2 weeks.

It was still very cloudy when I bottled it; the bottles will have a lot of sediment. The sample that I tasted did not taste particularly yeasty and it certainly didn't taste oxidized.

 

[jrgtr42]

Personally, if you're brewing a 1 gallon batch, I don't recommend using a 5 gallon or larger bucket. There's just too much air space and you'll risk oxidation. With a properly cleaned and sanitized one, infection is unlikely.
With a 5 gallon batch, a 6.5 or 7 gallon bucket is fine if not recommended - the co2 coming from the fermenting beer will push out the oxygen - 1 gallon in that size won't have enough co2 to push it out.
It's a similar response regarding sealing the fermenter. 1 gallon won't be enough to push out from a big bucket, 5 gallons will, at least until the end of primary fermentation. After that, opinions vary.
Personally, I seal up my fermenter - and I use an ale pail (or equivalent.) The only reason I open is if I'm dry hopping, and usually I'll take my first gravity then - and this is 2+ weeks after brewing. I reseal, ad the next time I open is for bottling. (of course I check my gravity first to make sure it matches before proceeding. Only once has there been a change between 17 days and 20 / 21 that I normally bottle at, in which case I sealed it back for another 4 or 5 days.)

 

[kh54s10]

With a larger headspace you want to limit the time the beer is in there. The "co2 blanket" will intermix with oxygen over time. I would try to limit the headspace to about 1/5 the total bucket volume, or ferment for only two weeks. After fermentation slows the oxygen will start to intermix with the co2 - the longer the time the worse the mixing.

I don't like the idea of bottling straight from the fermenter. A spigot will harbor contaminates that are really difficult to sanitize for while it is in use. Plus you are then probably going to have to individually prime each bottle. Carbonation tabs or Domino Dots would work. Trying to measure priming sugar or a solution to each bottle will most likely give uneven results. If you try to batch prime you will stir up sediment or get uneven mixing.

 

[z-bob]

How about increasing your brew size to 1.5 gallons? To take up more room in your 2 gallon bucket and reduce the headspace.

 

[stz]

I have always fermented at home in sealed containers with proper air locks or submerged blow off tubes acting as air locks. There is not really a downside except the equipment. At work we use loose lidded, but otherwise unsealed fermenters for primary fermentation. Again there is not really a downside, but you've got to understand that we pitch large amounts of liquid yeast under optimum conditions and as such that beer only spends 3-4 days in primary. The tanks have such a large and thick krausen with vigorous fermentation producing so much co2 that I can imagine you couldn't even toss a ping pong ball in there, it'd float over the surface and be pushed back out by the co2. I doubt much gets in. At home, where I might leave a beer in primary for a week or more depending on my schedule to the point where fermentation is totally finished, work with different yeasts sometimes without a starter, or cold crash causing the yeast to drop I believe a sealed container is safer. At work we do not really have much of a lag phase compared to what you'd get with pitching dry yeast at home brew quantities, the wort is susceptible to contamination for much less time.

 

[bernardsmith]

How about increasing your brew size to 1.5 gallons? To take up more room in your 2 gallon bucket and reduce the headspace.

I guess that increasing the volume of the batch is a possibility but the DME I get comes in 1 lb packs..

" Plus you are then probably going to have to individually prime each bottle. Carbonation tabs or Domino Dots would work." - Indeedy, kh54s10. If I am brewing 1 gallon I will get 9-10 bottles and using carbonation drops with that small number of bottles is not a problem...

 

[bernardsmith]

Personally, if you're brewing a 1 gallon batch, I don't recommend using a 5 gallon or larger bucket. There's just too much air space and you'll risk oxidation.

My bucket is 2 gallons. It has a lid which is supposed to seal but I don't know how hermetic the seal is. I don't use the plastic lid when I make a mead but simply cover the fermenter with a towel

 

[z-bob]

I think the 2 gallon bucket will be fine for a couple of weeks. It also depends what yeast you use and how thick and persistent the Krausen is.

[I just thought of this] Fill a couple of wine bottles with water, sanitize them (and cork them) and stand them up in the bucket to take up space. It will raise the level and reduce the air space.

 

[crunch1224]

Just like others have said it isnt necessary to have a sealed container with a air lock to make (beer), but it is recommended. A container with a air lock reduces the chance of wild yeast and contaminants from entering your beer and changing the flavor profile. It also slows down the process of O2 from entering your container. During fermentation process Co2 is released in copious amounts in the beginning, creating a blanket of gas protecting the beer. As time goes on this process slows down and O2 will start to mix with the Co2 blanket. Gasses will permeate starsan or vodka in the air lock, but it takes time. Most beers will finish before any adverse effect takes place.

 

[Brownalemikie]

I guess that increasing the volume of the batch is a possibility but the DME I get comes in 1 lb packs..

" Plus you are then probably going to have to individually prime each bottle. Carbonation tabs or Domino Dots would work." - Indeedy, kh54s10. If I am brewing 1 gallon I will get 9-10 bottles and using carbonation drops with that small number of bottles is not a problem...

DME also comes in 3 lb bags. Enuf for two 1 1/2 gallon batches.

 

[bernardsmith]

True, but I am not a brewer. I simply brew beer. I prefer my DME to be sealed and sanitized at source and not open and contaminated with bacteria.

 

[kh54s10]

True, but I am not a brewer. I simply brew beer. I prefer my DME to be sealed and sanitized at source and not open and contaminated with bacteria.

I buy my DME in 3 pound bags. I have kept some for over a year for making yeast starters. Thus I have been into the bags many times before I use it all. You are going to boil it so there is no problem of contamination.

 

[bernardsmith]

I buy my DME in 3 pound bags. I have kept some for over a year for making yeast starters. Thus I have been into the bags many times before I use it all. You are going to boil it so there is no problem of contamination.

Big assumption... Why would I boil DME unless I want to darken the ale? The DME was produced at high temperatures and under sanitary conditions. It is sealed until the moment I open it. If I wear a belt I don't need to wear suspenders to keep my pants from falling off. :smack: I certainly boil the water to which I have added hops but the temperature will drop quite rapidly the moment I add the DME - Does everyone boil their DME? I boil a wort I make from grains, but DME? Why?

 

[kh54s10]

Big assumption... Why would I boil DME unless I want to darken the ale? The DME was produced at high temperatures and under sanitary conditions. It is sealed until the moment I open it. If I wear a belt I don't need to wear suspenders to keep my pants from falling off. :smack: I certainly boil the water to which I have added hops but the temperature will drop quite rapidly the moment I add the DME - Does everyone boil their DME? I boil a wort I make from grains, but DME? Why?

How are you using the DME? I would say that 90% or more add the DME during the boil. If you add it to the wort after flameout but above 170 degrees it will sanitize it.

If you don't have a wort to boil the hops in you are not getting the proper isomerization from them. They need to go in wort, not just water.

 

[bernardsmith]

How are you using the DME? I would say that 90% or more add the DME during the boil. If you add it to the wort after flameout but above 170 degrees it will sanitize it.

If you don't have a wort to boil the hops in you are not getting the proper isomerization from them. They need to go in wort, not just water.

I add the DME when the water is close to 212 F but what is the basis for your claim that hops need sugar for alpha acids to isomerize? They certainly need a pH lower than 7 so I add a drop or two of lemon juice. But sugar in fact inhibits isomerization, doesn't it? (see for example: https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/7343/does-wort-gravity-affect-hop-utilization ) The higher the gravity of the wort the less the acids isomerize. But in any event I am looking only for the hop flavors and not the acidity. My boil time is 10-15 minutes , not an hour. Happy (seriously) to be better informed but I need published evidence and not "everyone know that". Everyone knew the world was flat and everyone knew that the sun orbited the Earth and everyone knew that the Earth was at the center of the universe.. and everyone seems to know that hops need sugar for isomerization

 

[kh54s10]

I add the DME when the water is close to 212 F but what is the basis for your claim that hops need sugar for alpha acids to isomerize? They certainly need a pH lower than 7 so I add a drop or two of lemon juice. But sugar in fact inhibits isomerization, doesn't it? (see for example: https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/7343/does-wort-gravity-affect-hop-utilization ) The higher the gravity of the wort the less the acids isomerize. But in any event I am looking only for the hop flavors and not the acidity. My boil time is 10-15 minutes , not an hour. Happy (seriously) to be better informed but I need published evidence and not "everyone know that". Everyone knew the world was flat and everyone knew that the sun orbited the Earth and everyone knew that the Earth was at the center of the universe.. and everyone seems to know that hops need sugar for isomerization

Guess I don't know... I guess lemon juice would do it? But this is the first time I have heard of anyone adding hops to anything other than wort.

 

[bernardsmith]

Mead makers don't brew their honey - that would destroy aromatics and flavor molecules but we sometimes add hops to the mead, so we make a hop tea with the water and use that water to dilute the honey.. Quite common. Of course brewers who make mead often boil their honey.. but hey , to each their own.

 

[eric19312]

It is interesting question...why boil dme? I am all grain brewer but use dme for starters. I always boil it. I see considerable hot break in the flask when I boil it. Maybe that is why you should boil DME...to get the hot break.

 

[morbster]

It is interesting question...why boil dme? I am all grain brewer but use dme for starters. I always boil it. I see considerable hot break in the flask when I boil it. Maybe that is why you should boil DME...to get the hot break.

The boil is for the water, not the DME. You want a minimal-bacteria environment before introducing the yeast.