Poor efficiency Batch Sparging

[mojo21136]

...and I have looked at the sticky (although likely not as closely as I should have )

I've batch sparged a few batches now and no matter what I do, I don't seem to be able to get above 65% efficiency (and sometimes it has seemed a little lower). Some of the things I've done:

1. Checked h2o chemicals and added Five Star 5.2 to make sure my PH is OK
2. Performed a mash out addition.
3. Skipped a mash out addition
4. Sparged in one giant sparge
5. Split the sparging

I'm using a 52 quart Coleman Extreme cooler with a bazooka tube as a mash tun. I typically mash with about 1.25quarts per pound and my temps have been reasonably close to what I'm shooting for.

Could the size of the mash tun and the depth of the mash have something to do with poor efficiency?

I appreciate any advice that can be given. I will also re-read the sticky post on efficiency to make sure I'm not missing something obvious.

 

[maida7]

Try using a finer crush.

 

[mojo21136]

Maida - Thanks - I should have stated one more piece of info

I've been using the crush that comes from midwestsupplies and my local supplier (I don't have a mill yet). My thought was that their 'default' would at least get me in the ballpark. Is that a bad assumption?

 

[broadbill]

+1 to maida7 suggestion.....it seems like pH is the thing everyone turns to when their efficiency is bad when most times its the crush to blame.

My gut feeling that that some LHBS don't crush fine enough to get you to buy more grain from them. I would guess their mark-up on grains isn't as good as it is on DME so they have to increase their margin somehow (just a guess though)

 

[AnOldUR]

My gut feeling that that some LHBS don't crush fine enough to get you to buy more grain from them.

My guess would be that they'd hear more complaints about stuck mash than efficiency. It's a balancing act for them since they don't know and can't cater to everyone’s system.

But I agree, try a finer crush. Either use a different on-line vendor (I’ve heard that Brewmasters Warehouse has a good crush) or get your local guy to adjust his mill (or run it through twice.)



Edit:
Another thought. Are you getting your grain bed up to 165-170 degrees when you sparge?
(That takes water in the 185-190 range.)

 

[maida7]

First off 65% is not poor. It's at the lower end of average. So you could make no changes and just make beer and be happy.

But if you really want to get into it, read this http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency

On your next batch take a gravity reading from your first runnings and compare it to this chart. http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/File:First_wort_gravity.gif With a mash of 1.25 qts / lb your aiming for first runnings close to 1.096. If it's significantly less than your losing efficiency in the mash. Probably the crush. If your at 1.096 then your losing efficiency in the lauder. Could be dead space in the cooler. Could be your sparge is not hot enough. Could be lotsa little things.

Be careful with a super fine crush, you will get a stuck mash. I had one last weekend on a hefeweisse and it was not fun.

 

[AnOldUR]

Be careful with a super fine crush, you will get a stuck mash. I had one last weekend on a hefeweisse and it was not fun.

Some people think that rice hulls are for sissies, but I’d rather go with my crush a bit fine and throw in a couple of handfuls of hulls for protection (especially if it's a wheat.)

 

[maida7]

Some people think that rice hulls are for sissies, but I’d rather go with my crush a bit fine and throw in a couple of handfuls of hulls for protection (especially if it's a wheat.)

Yeah, I will use rice hulls in my next wheat. I learned that one the hard way. I did get the wort to lauter but it was very slow. Added atleast an hour to my brew day and the wort is super cloudy. But my efficiency into the kettle was over 85% and the beer is happily fermenting

 

[stevedasleeve]

Hmm my efficiency has been for the last year 63%, batch sparging, igloo cooler... I changed my crush a few times with not much of a change. I had a horrible stuck sparge day recently so I went back to my old grind - just a bit less than mfg default (Barley Crusher) and have left it there.

Now I worry not at all! To put it in perspective:


63% vs 65% vs 75% = 16 lbs 12 oz vs 16 lbs 2 ozs vs 14 lbs for the same OG for my big IPA recipe. Adding in the hops to keep the same IBUs I am paying just a wee bit more for 5.75 gallons than if I had a more macho efficiency number.

FWIW and YMMV!

Steve da sleewve

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

Crush is definitely number one, I was fortunate enough to get a Barley Crusher as a gift last year and my efficiency jumped about 10 points using the stock setting. Combine that with sparging hotter & slower and I'm now getting 82% on most beers. If you can swing it, I would suggest spending some coin on some type of Mill. Easier said than done though.

 

[Synovia]

Hmm my efficiency has been for the last year 63%, batch sparging, igloo cooler... I changed my crush a few times with not much of a change. I had a horrible stuck sparge day recently so I went back to my old grind - just a bit less than mfg default (Barley Crusher) and have left it there.

Now I worry not at all! To put it in perspective:


63% vs 65% vs 75% = 16 lbs 12 oz vs 16 lbs 2 ozs vs 14 lbs for the same OG for my big IPA recipe. Adding in the hops to keep the same IBUs I am paying just a wee bit more for 5.75 gallons than if I had a more macho efficiency number.

FWIW and YMMV!

Steve da sleewve

Almost 17lbs of grain vs 14lbs isn't a wee bit of difference, especially if you're not able to get grain for $.60/lb like a lot of us are. When you're adding $3-6 to each brew, it adds up.

And thats only looking at 75%. A lot of us get 85%.

At 85% you're looking at only 12lbs of grain. I can do a batch of Pale (with bulk hops and grain) for around $12. At 65% efficiency? We're looking at a 30+ % increase in cost.

 

[mojo21136]

Thanks - this is all very helpful.

I think the consensus is that the problem is not the size of the mash tun (I didn't think so but I'm stumped) but the grind. My solutions are to grind my own or adjust my recipes for the reality of my efficiency and not what I'd like it to be.

Based on that, I have a few questions:

1. Any recommendations on malt mills? Any excuse to buy a new piece of equipment is a good for me (it actually is something I have been planning to get.. Being able to save more by buying base malts in bulk makes sense to me)

2. What is a good setting for the spacing of the grinding thing-a-ma-bobs on the mill?

Thanks again.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

I can only speak to the Barley Crusher, I'm very happy with it. I've probably run 30 or so batches of grain through it and it hasn't skipped a beat. I do know some guys that share one between the 3 of them and they have succeeded in wearing out the rollers to a point where it won't crush properly anymore. But all 3 of them do 10g batches with huge grainbills. For me it was the best choice, mostly because I could just take it out of the box and start using it. I didn't have time or patience to build hopper or some contraption to mount it on. It fits perfectly on a 5g bucket, I hook up my cordless drill to it and I'm off and running. But I know that other folks have great results with other options.

Oh, and I find that the stock gap setting on the BC works great, I believe it is .039"

 

[heywolfie1015]

Do you stir the grains at the end of the mash and again at the end of the sparge? My first couple of batches were in the 65 range, and went up dramatically from there once I started stirring.

In case I was unclear, I mean giving the whole thing a good stir right before beginning to run off the wort.

 

[maida7]

Thanks - this is all very helpful.

I think the consensus is that the problem is not the size of the mash tun (I didn't think so but I'm stumped) but the grind. My solutions are to grind my own or adjust my recipes for the reality of my efficiency and not what I'd like it to be.

Based on that, I have a few questions:

1. Any recommendations on malt mills? Any excuse to buy a new piece of equipment is a good for me (it actually is something I have been planning to get.. Being able to save more by buying base malts in bulk makes sense to me)

2. What is a good setting for the spacing of the grinding thing-a-ma-bobs on the mill?

Thanks again.

I'd still recommend comparing your first runnings to that chart before you throw in the towel and assume it's the crush.

I have a crank and stien mill. It's a very good mill and I highly recommend it. I have mine set to about .030" and that makes a very fine crush. But don't go too far or you'll have major problems with lautering. I had a stuck sparge recently on a wheat beer. What a mess.

If you do get a mill, use a drill as a motor. Hand cranking is for the birds.

 

[BLM]

I had 65% for lots of batches then got a barley crusher still 65% at the stock setting so I adj the rollers by .002 each time I am now at .032 and am getting 70-75% eff but like others have said 65 is not bad as long as its cosistant is what matters

 

[mojo21136]

All thanks. Since I already wanted a mill, this is a nudge in the right (or if you talk to my wife, wrong) direction. maida7 - I'm definitely going to check the first runnings against the chart you provided. It looks like a very good resource.

Cheers!

 

[Teaman]

What do you guys think about mojo using a thinner mash. I use 1.5 per lb and don't have the efficiency problems. Do you think that might help??

 

[azscoob]

I was getting efficiency close to you, 66%. I got a mill and immediately shot up to 75%, I then started conditioning and milling much tighter and I am currently averaging 87%. I did chart my first runnings and I determined that crush was my big issue. tweaking my mill and other small improvements here and there in my process have worked wonders for both efficiency and consistency.

I agree, one improvement was going to a 1.5 mash ratio.

 

[mojo21136]

I picked up a barley crusher and and got around to brewing my first batch of an ESB that I've done in the past. I changed nothing in process with the exception of the crush.

The results were exactly what I was hoping for. I actually had to add a little extra water to bring the OG down.

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

I picked up a barley crusher and and got around to brewing my first batch of an ESB that I've done in the past. I changed nothing in process with the exception of the crush.

The results were exactly what I was hoping for. I actually had to add a little extra water to bring the OG down.

Thanks for all the advice.

Nice, Congrats!

 

[azscoob]

I'm glad to hear your numbers are up! and you have another brew gizmo to play with too!