poor attenuation with malt liquor

[scottlindner]

I recently brewed a malt liquor that resulted in a poor attenuation. I'm not sure if the yeasties pooped out, poor yeast strain selection, or if it was a problem during the mash.

Here's the details:
34% 2 row
37% 6-row
29% flaked maize
Mash temp ~151F
OG = 1.057
WLP810 San Fransisco Lager
Primary temp ~68F

When I racked to secondary after two weeks in primary the gravity was 1.026. I had saved some WYeast 1056 from another brew and put that in the secondary to help it out. I figured both are clean yeasts and most of the fermentation already happened with the lager yeast so it wouldn't give the beer an ale flavor. After a month in secondary the FG is at 1.022.

We tasted a sample. It is going to be a superb malt liquor, but it's a little sweet. I had hoped to get in the 1.012 to 1.015 range to keep it dryer.

I have never brewed with corn before and I have never attempted a lager before. I don't have anyway to hold a lager temp so I picked a strain that was effective has high as I could find. Any thoughts regarding the cause of the higher than desired FG?

Scott

 

[Sean]

What the heck is a Malt Liquor?? Other than the blue bull?

 

[jspence1]

ok now I don't know what malt liquor or blue bull are.

 

[BarleyWater]

Ya'll seriously don't know what Malt Liqour is?

Many a time have I fallen victim to the curses of malt liquor. Yes, nothing better than a couple granades of Mickeys right after getting out of school. And of yes, lets not forget the 40s of Ice House, or the OE High Gravity 800 when we were feeling like really shelling out the big bucks.

Ya, nothing better than sittin' back with a couple cans of Colt 45 or some King Cobra in a 40oz to help you forget where you are.

 

[BarleyWater]

To actually help the OP, what temp were you able to hold it at for fermentation, what temps did you mash at, and what were your mashing procedures? These are critical to know what in your process could have caused the high FG. Also, that yeast has a relatively low attenuation, which could also account for the high FG, although it should have dropped further than that.

 

[scottlindner]

To actually help the OP, what temp were you able to hold it at for fermentation, what temp did you mash at, and what were your mashing procedures? These are critical to know what in your process could have caused the high FG. Also, that yeast has a relatively low attenuation, which could also account for the high FG, although it should have dropped further than that.

Most of these details are in my original post. I used a single infusion mash.

After racking the secondary, I suspected the low attenuation of the WLP810 so I added the WYeast 1056 to help bring it down. Since 1056 is a fairly clean ale yeast with a fairly high attenuation I thought it would do the trick.

BTW, this is an OE800 clone recipe for those that are intrigued by malt liquor.

Scott

 

[Sean]

That's a lot o 6-row. I think what BW is saying is that is not enough information.

Did you do a protein rest? Did you mash for 20 min, 60 min..90 min:, ??

my curiosity is unresolved. What characteristic defines a malt liquor? Is it simply high alcohol, and easy to drink?

Thanks,

BTW, Welcome

 

[Ketchepillar]

It is high alcohol and "light" but I would not say easy to drink.

 

[niquejim]

That's a lot o 6-row. I think what BW is saying is that is not enough information.

Did you do a protein rest? Did you mash for 20 min, 60 min..90 min:, ??

my curiosity is unresolved. What characteristic defines a malt liquor? Is it simply high alcohol, and easy to drink?

Thanks,

BTW, Welcome

What's a lot of 6-Row?
My https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f58/american-owl-cap-58661/ has lots more and not knowing the hops in his it might not be as good

 

[BarleyWater]

Well, 151 is actually high for a single infusion on this beer style. Most Malt Liquors are probably finishing under 1.010, and you would either need a step mash, or a very low single infusion in the 140s to get a wort that was that fermentable. That combined with the fact that the yeast you used is not like a traditional lager yeast, and has a very low average attenuation of 65-70%, could have caused your problem.

Also, if you don't have any temp control, variations in the fermentation temp could have stressed out the yeast so they quite early. Keeping the beer at a steady 68 is probably pretty tough without the use of temp control. Did you make a starter, or did you just pitch the tube?

 

[BarleyWater]

my curiosity is unresolved. What characteristic defines a malt liquor? Is it simply high alcohol, and easy to drink?

Thanks,

BTW, Welcome

I really can't imagine never having encountered a malt liquor. It is relatively high alcohol, although never more than about 7-8%, very light, very tough to drink beer. Imagine a bottle of nothing but fussel alcohols, and that's malt liquor. It is characterised by an extremely light body, reminiscent of an American light lager, highly effervescent, and light yellow in color. Although unlike the light lager, it is doesn't have "drinkability", it has drunkability.

At around $2 for 40oz of 7% beer, it gets you smashed fast, and leaves you with the worst hangover ever. Head on down to your local ghetto, and pick up a 40oz of pretty much anything, because I'm pretty sure only Malt Liquor comes in a 40oz bottle, stick in a paper bag and enjoy.

 

[scottlindner]

Well, 151 is actually high for a single infusion on this beer style. Most Malt Liquors are probably finishing under 1.010, and you would either need a step mash, or a very low single infusion in the 140s to get a wort that was that fermentable. That combined with the fact that the yeast you used is not like a traditional lager yeast, and has a very low average attenuation of 65-70%, could have caused your problem.

Also, if you don't have any temp control, variations in the fermentation temp could have stressed out the yeast so they quite early. Keeping the beer at a steady 68 is probably pretty tough without the use of temp control. Did you make a starter, or did you just pitch the tube?

Wow.. in all of my years brewing I have never heard anyone say 151F is a high mash temp. I guess the enzymes are doing their thing at much lower temperatures than I thought they would.

I'm aware of the year strain attenuation. That's why I used an additional yeast strain at the end that has a much higher attenuation. I used the two yeast strain approach for the following reason. The first yeast strain was used to avoid the ale like flavor. Since it has a low attenuation I used a second yeast strain that has a high attenuation and also does not have too much ale flavor. I did not use a starter for either strain of yeast.

The original recipe, a clone in the book "Home Brewer's Gold", calls for a scarification rest at 150F. 151F is what I hit. I'm also not confident in my thermometer so there could have been other temp problems that I don't even know about.

So it sounds like I need to mash in the mid 140F's and brew this again in January when my basement will be colder so I can use a real lager strain. We were having a fairly cold streak this summer so I brewed that. By mid day on brew day it was the hottest day on record, and held the hot streak for two weeks. The entire time it was in primary. Just bad luck.

I, too, cannot believe people have not heard about malt liquor. I used to drink a ton of Mickey's in college. From tasting this OE800 clone, I think it's going to be one of the best malt liquors I've ever had. Of course, I actually prefer belgians. The timing is off, but I think this will be a fairly good lawnmower brew.

Scott

 

[scottlindner]

I'm pretty sure only Malt Liquor comes in a 40oz bottle, stick in a paper bag and enjoy.

Mickey's also comes in 12oz little green bottles with the puzzles underneath the label.

For those that really don't know anything about malt liquors. Most of them are named after your favorite hand gun: Colt 45, Magnum, etc. (I think that's an Eddy Murphy stand up joke from long ago).

Even high class brewers like Dogfish Head are taking interest in malt liquor.
Dogfish Head - Liquor de Malt

Scott

 

[scottlindner]

What's a lot of 6-Row?
My https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f58/american-owl-cap-58661/ has lots more and not knowing the hops in his it might not be as good

I did not do a protein rest. I did a single infusion mash at 151F for one hour. I did not feel the protein rest was necessary and it was my friend's first all grain brew I helped him with so I didn't want to overwhelm him with complexities.

Here's the recipe I found online from Papazian's book:

Olde English 800
5 Gallons

OG: 1.055 (13.5)
FG: 1.004 (1)
ABV: 7%
Color: 4.5 SRM
Bittering Units: 14

3.5 lbs. American 2-row pale malt
3.75 lbs. American 6-row malt
3 lbs. flaked corn
2 HBU (56 MBU) American Cluster hops (pellets) - 105 minutes (bittering)
1.5 HBU (43 MBU) American Nugget hops (pellets) - 105 minutes (bittering)
1/4 tsp. Irish moss
Wyeast 2007 Pilsen Lager yeast

 

[scottlindner]

I'm brewing today and this is the first time I'm using a bulb floating thermometer instead of my dial type that I've been using for years. I compared the two in several different ranges and in every case the dial type reads 10F lower than the bulb. So this may be my issue.

Unfortunately I used the dial type for my strike water. So now my mash is sitting outside with the lid off waiting for it to drop to the desired range. Yikes. I had no clue it would be off so much.

Scott

 

[BarleyWater]

I know Mickeys comes in smaller bottles, I just don't think any other beverages are sold in 40s.

151 I would only consider high for a style like this. I would say a step in the mid 140s then another in the mid 150s would make for the most fermentable wort, but a single rest at around 148 would make a pretty fermentable wort also. Also, that yeast you just listed has an average attenuation of 5-10% higher.

When adding yeast to a beer to try to restart fermentation, it is not an easy thing to do. Alcohol is toxic to yeast, so dropping fresh yeast into a beer that has already produced alcohol is just going to kill most of that yeast. You need to get a big starter actively fermenting to give the yeast any chance of making it in their new enviroment. With active yeast that has started to produce alcohol itself, it can better acclimate to the new enviroment and can work to get that beer down tose last couple points. This also works to get rid of diacetyl and acetylaldehyde.

 

[scottlindner]

I know Mickeys comes in smaller bottles, I just don't think any other beverages are sold in 40s.

151 I would only consider high for a style like this. I would say a step in the mid 140s then another in the mid 150s would make for the most fermentable wort, but a single rest at around 148 would make a pretty fermentable wort also. Also, that yeast you just listed has an average attenuation of 5-10% higher.

When adding yeast to a beer to try to restart fermentation, it is not an easy thing to do. Alcohol is toxic to yeast, so dropping fresh yeast into a beer that has already produced alcohol is just going to kill most of that yeast. You need to get a big starter actively fermenting to give the yeast any chance of making it in their new enviroment. With active yeast that has started to produce alcohol itself, it can better acclimate to the new enviroment and can work to get that beer down tose last couple points. This also works to get rid of diacetyl and acetylaldehyde.

The second yeast I used came from another primary earlier in the day. I did do a quick wash on it, but I think it was still fairly active. Right?

I think the culrpit is mash temperature. I am hopeful now that I have learned the thermometer I was using reads at least 10F below the real temperature.

Thanks for the good advice.

Cheers,
Scott

 

[BarleyWater]

Well, there's nothing wrong with a little extra body in the beer. You can check those thermometers by seeing if they read 32 in a cup of ice water (packed with ice), and 212 in a pot of boiling water. The dial one is probably pretty easy to calibrate with just an adjustment screw.

 

[scottlindner]

Well, there's nothing wrong with a little extra body in the beer. You can check those thermometers by seeing if they read 32 in a cup of ice water (packed with ice), and 212 in a pot of boiling water. The dial one is probably pretty easy to calibrate with just an adjustment screw.

If my thermometer reads 212F in boiling water, then I know it's faulty!

The boiling point where I live is roughly 195F.