Pollination tables for ancient English and French cider apple and perry pear varieties?

[Kees]

I cannot find any compehensive pollination tables of old varieties, especially English and French. Do they exist? And if so, where can I find them?

 

[MtnGoatJoe]

Try Orange Pippin: Apples and orchards, pears, plums, cherries - flavors, tasting notes, identification

 

[dmtaylor]

I did dozens (hundreds?) of hours of research about 10 years ago when I was interested in planting a few trees, and came up with the following. Copied and pasted out of my own personal spreadsheet, and listed in order in groups of average blossom dates (e.g., "C" is early", "H" is very late). (I never did actually plant any of these, but, heh, whatever!) Enjoy.

C	7	Reine des Pommes	Bittersweets	Moderately bitter. Makes a very dark, rich cider. From Brittany, 19th century. Bloom early. Tree vigor medium. Productive. Harvest midseason.
C	8	Tremlett's Bitter	Bittersweets	"Hard" tannins, very bitter, but valuable for blending in cidre. Precocious and productive but can be difficult to grow. Tends to go biennial. Early October. Fruit 2", yellow skin flushes to bright shiny red. Fair tolerance to blight. Tolerant of scab. England, late 19th century.
C	9	Foxwhelp	Bittersharp	Aromatic, full bodied, high class, flavoursome golden juice. Produces a “vintage” quality cider with a characteristic strong musky flavour. Bears very young. Moderately vigorous, good cropper, some tendency of biennialism. Early-mid-season bloom & harvest. Small to medium brilliant red striped fruit. “Improved Foxwhelp” or “Fauxwhelp” seems to be a descendant of the original variety known since the 17th century which probably arose in Gloucestershire. "Fauxwhelp" is a larger, less tannic apple without the same striping pattern.
C	10	Bulmer's Norman	Bittersweets	The standard bittersweet cidre variety in England; originated in Normandy, early 1900s. Hard tannin. Triploid; strong grower. Early bloom. Mid-October harvest. Tends to be biennial. Poor pollen. Fair tolerance to blight. Scab susceptible. Fruit 2-1/4", greenish-yellow. Very winter hardy -- has come through -40 without serious damage.
C	11	Grenadier	Sharp	Early-season English cooking apple. Greenish, tangy juice with a honey flavor. Good flavor for all sorts of culinary uses, very easy to grow, and crops well. Ripens by mid-August. Lumpen green, often with a pronounced ribbed effect and dots of russet. Disease resistant, not as vigorous as Bramley. Buckinghamshire, England, 19th century.
D	12	Bramley's	Sharp	The standard cooking apple of England. Nottingham, 19th century. Sharp acidic flavour. Consistent heavy crops of large apples. Green skin with orange flush. Triploid, poor pollen. Very vigorous and productive, with large leathery leaves. Late blooming. Considerable tolerance to scab and powdery mildew. Ripens early October. Cold hardy.
D	12	Taylor's Sweet	Sweet	It is so sugary sweet that after biting into it the flesh will start turning dark quickly. The apples ripen in the first and second week of August and do not keep very long. The fruit is small, greenish-yellowish with brown specks. 1883 Worcester, England.
D	13	Yarlington Mill	Bittersweets	Sweet, aromatic, and moderately bitter; makes "vintage cider". Late October/early November. Fruit 2-1/4", conic. Large drooping tree, distinctive large, dark green leaves. Precocious and consistently productive although putting out a smaller crop 2 out of 5 years. Small fruit, flushed red over pale yellow. Quite winter hardy. Moderately susceptible to scab. Late 19th century, Somerset, England.
D	15	Michelin	Bittersweets	Mildly bitter; "soft" tannins and non-distinct flavor. Semi-compact tree, natural vase shape; precocious and very productive. Self-fertile. Reliable cropper. Now most widely planted variety in West of England cidre country. Small to medium pale green fruit w/ some pink blush. Scab tolerant. Susceptible to fire blight. Late October harvest. Normandy, 1870s.
E	17	Kingston Black	Bittersharp	Excellent mild, sweet, but distinctive barnyard flavour, allegedly the “perfect vintage” cider apple! Tree – Growth and cropping moderate. Some tendency of biennialism. Hard to grow and slow to start bearing. Natural dwarf. Susceptible to scab and canker, but resistant to fire blight. Harvests late October. Fruit is small to medium sized with an orangey background overlaid with a dark mahogany coloration, with plentiful dark juice. Said to have originated in Somersetshire, England, about 1820.
E	17	Dabinett	Bittersweets	Makes a bittersweet, aromatic and full-bodied “vintage” cidre. Precocious and consistently very productive. Self-fertile. Late midseason bloom; late season harvest. Widely planted in England and France. Natural semidwarf. Fruit 1-3/4". Small to medium greenish yellow fruit covered with red blush. Considerable tolerance to fire blight. Scab tolerant. Needs additional potash. Parent is supposedly Chisel Jersey, which per geneticists is one of the wildest or "most diverse" apples currently propogated. Likely a redder sport of Harry Master's Jersey. England, 1961.
		Ashton Bitter	Bittersweets	Dabinett x Stoke Red cross. Medium-full bittersweet. Very aromatic. Early harvest. England, 1947.
E	17	Breakwell Seedling	Bittersharp	Very mild bittersharp, making "light" cider. English, from the 1890s. Heavy cropping; biennial. Moderate vigor. Excellent winter hardiness. Fruit is small to medium in size, yellow skin with red blush or striping. Harvest late September/early October.
E	18	Harry Master's Jersey	Bittersweets	"Full bittersweet" making "vintage cider". Nearly identical to Dabinett in every way. Small conical fruit. Precocious and productive annually. Small compact tree. Late midseason harvest. Late flowering. Fruit 2". Green skin covered in red stripes with dark red flush. Scab susceptible. England, 19th century.
E	18	Improved Dove	Bittersweets	Sweet and slightly astringent juice and a mild bittersweet vintage quality cider. Trees are of medium vigour. Small drooping tree with grayish foliage. Tree is prone to disease. Late blooming, mid to late-season harvest. Apples have waxy skin. Similar in characteristics to Dabinett or Yarlington Mill. England, 1964.
E	19	Brown Thorn	Bittersweets	Very mildly bitter. Very old variety from Normandy, where it is known as 'Argile Grise'. Late bloom. Tree vigor medium. Late harvest. Flecked with red, covered in russet. Very susceptible to fire blight.
G	25	Stoke Red	Bittersharp	Fruity aromatic, high quality “medium” bittersharp, for single variety “vintage” cider or blending. Ferments exceptionally clean. Tree – Slow and very twiggy. Winter hardy. High cropper, biennial tendency. Resistant to scab, highly susceptible to mildew and fire blight. Harvests end of October/early November, and doesn't keep well. The fruit is small to medium sized, yellow skinned with a bright red flush. England, 1920s.
G	25	Brown Snout	Bittersweets	Mild-moderate bitterness, but tannin is soft. Relatively short storage life. Late blooming and late harvest; self-fruitful. Fruit small (1-3/4"), yellow with russet at the eye of the apple, light wax. Biennial. Scab susceptible. Very susceptible to fire blight. England, 1850s.
H	30	Medaille d'Or	Bittersweets	Heavily astringent and very sweet -- "full bittersweet"; vintage quality cidre of 9-14% ABV. November harvest. Scab-resistant. Very very late bloom. Very productive; some biennial tendency. Brittle wood, prone to breakage. Fruit small, yellow, waxy, with stripes of russet. France, early 19th century.
H	30	Vilberie	Bittersweets	Very bitter with high astringency. Bitterness harsh – best used in blending. If one likes a very stout, full-bodied cider, this is the one. 19th century variety from Brittany. Late harvest; fruit 2", deep green with slight red blush on sunny side. Vigorous tree. Precocious and productive. Very late blooming. Supposedly self-fertile. Fire blight susceptible.

 

[Kees]

Great list! Thanks for posting. However flowering at the same time does not mean being able to pollinate one another.

 

[Kees]

Just stumbled upon this website with great information about pollination partners. I'll see if I can distill a useful format from its information.
Blakeney Red is just one of the many varieties listed with pollination partners.
https://www.keepers-nursery.co.uk/searchpolpartner.aspx?id=BLAKRD

 

[Kees]

RHS list for apples:
https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/pdfs/ApplePollinationGroups.pdf

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I cannot find any compehensive pollination tables of old varieties, especially English and French. Do they exist? And if so, where can I find them?

They certainly exist - you need to talk to the British national collection of fruit trees at Brogdale in Kent which has over 2000 apple varieties and >500 pear trees. I'm pretty sure that their full list with pollination groups was on the web at some point but I can't find it on a quick search - they certainly have a printed version in their shop. There's an interactive database which has an amazing amount of detail with flowering times (eg Dabinett) but you have to manually extract them and work out if they overlap.

This is an old version of Brogdale's retail catalogue, which only has a tiny fraction of the full collection (although they will graft-to-order anything in the main collection) - their current range of cider apples is rather better and lists pollination groups, although you have to go through each page in turn.

Send them an email, they're very helpful - they're true enthusiasts and love a good geek about pollination groups!!!

There's also the Tidnor Wood collection of 300 cider varieties in Herefordshire, their website is a bit of a mess and I'm not sure what the current status is, I think that effectively the National Trust run the horticulture side and Brogdale the science side.

The French equivalent is held at INRA Angers, I don't know what they make available to the public.

 

[dmtaylor]

Great list! Thanks for posting. However flowering at the same time does not mean being able to pollinate one another.

It should. Few might be triploids. The vast majority should be able to pollenize if flowering relatively close together (within a span of a few groups).