Political Threads / Religious Threads

[olllllo]

Get technical if you wish

I'm pointing out that a statement was made and presented as fact.
We do not have that fact.

 

[adrock]

Why stop with the humor there?

Fixed that for ya........quit spelling everything wrong!

 

[Evan!]

this is a different board with different people - so it may not be the same. I was just trying to relate from a similar situation.

And a different specialty topic matter too. Sports allegiances can be like religions sometimes...and I could see how every topic had the potential to become heated. Homebrewing, not so much. Good beer is good beer---and while there are many ways to make good beer, I don't see many things that cause people to get defensive about it. Sports...yeah...lots of potential.

 

[Rick_R]

The principle argument for suppressing conversation between other people (consenting adults, no less) is based on a premise that there is limited information to support and you even freely admit may be erroneous. Do you not agree that such a line of reasoning is illogical?

Not at all. First, PMs, e-mail, and the huge number of forums available elsewhere allow the consenting adults to carry on such debates to their heart's content. Second, it's your opinion that there is limited information to support the idea the forum would be negatively affected; this thread has a post from someone with experience that banning such threads made a forum better, and I've seen heated discussions bleed over into other posts on this site. Third, you suggest that my admitting my position might be wrong is tantamount to admitting illogical reasoning. Part of the problem with debating, here and elsewhere, is that so many people are unwilling to accept they may be in the wrong (yet, interestingly, are usually the first to suggest they enter the discussion with an "open mind"). With hot-button topics, this makes it more likely to become nasty. Are you saying you are never wrong or it's just in this particular instance there is no chance you have erred in your position?

I go into most discussions accepting I may be wrong in my opinion; I think it's the only way to have a truly healthy discussion. Otherwise you're just proselytizing.

That sword has two edges. What if political/religious threads are NOT allowed to continue because 60 people vote to disallow them and a gazillion members left. Then you'd wish you took them into account.

I absolutely agree; my point was you shouldn't assume the poll is a direct correlation of those who didn't vote. Fact is, I'd guess the majority that don't vote could care less whether or not they continue. Truth is, I don't think keeping or not keeping them will have any noticeable impact on membership. I just think the place will be a nicer place to hang around if they are disallowed.

Rick

 

[BierMuncher]

...For BM (and others), it's all non-beer. And hence the "ban all" discussion. Because if the goal is to eliminate undesirable conversations from HBT, then the only common topic that ALL of us come here for is beer...

Hey, i like to talk about ****ies and BBQ as much as the next guy (or gal...not that there's anything wrong with that...)

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Hello, stupid, if you don't like the thread, STOP READING IT!

I'm sure glad we can remain civil while discussing this...

Your choice of words speaks volumes about this topic. Evan argues that the HBT community should be self-policing in discussion threads, but time after time we see the community is not up to the task. Eventually words and phrases like "stupid" or "hysterical hyper-emotional ranting" crop up, and the discussion spirals downward.

 

[Evan!]

it's your opinion that there is limited information to support the idea the forum would be negatively affected; this thread has a post from someone with experience that banning such threads made a forum better, and I've seen heated discussions bleed over into other posts on this site.

I've seen heated discussions spill over too, but they are very rare in my experience. VERY rare. I mean, like, in the two years I've been here, I've seen it maybe half a dozen times. Regardless, it's not up to us to prove a negative (or disprove a positive) like the people who said that there weren't any WMD's in Iraq. It's up to the ones who are making the assertion that this is a problem to 'prove a positive' if their position is to be given credence. Otherwise it's just my anecdotes versus your anecdotes...useless.

 

[Rick_R]

attempting to fix a hypothetical problem.

But, Evan, I don't believe it to be that hypothetical. I've seen discussion on other boards blow up with folks who had been friendly for a long time become bitter in all their dealings with each other on the boards, with the end result being the exodus of members who were valued for their knowledge around the central purpose of the board.

Like others here, I've been fooling around on discussion boards since they were single-modem BBSes. Over the years, I've seen hot-button issues damage a friendly message board, from SF&F, to writing, to amateur radio, to photography to others I've probably forgotten. In my experience, it's fairly common to happen. It may not be nor become an issue here, but I don't think the potential is quite as hypothetical as the antics displayed in Reefer Madness.

Rick

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Hey, i like to talk about ****ies and BBQ as much as the next guy (or gal...not that there's anything wrong with that...)

And when was the last time you saw a verbal fight on HBO about ****s or BBQ? Oh sure...silicone vs saline vs natural, or maybe gas vs charcoal, but always friendly and without insulting comments. It helps that we have specific, dedicated places to discuss these things. I don't go to the all-grain or general chit-chat forums and start arguing about my preference of lump charcoal or dry rubs. (Or saline!)

Nobody has ever suggested banning all non-beer discussion. Just two specific categories of discussion, which quite reliably turn into nasty fights and require mod intervention.

 

[Evan!]

I'm sure glad we can remain civil while discussing this...

Your choice of words speaks volumes about this topic. Evan argues that the HBT community should be self-policing in discussion threads, but time after time we see the community is not up to the task. Eventually words and phrases like "stupid" or "hysterical hyper-emotional ranting" crop up, and the discussion spirals downward.

I never said it should be purely self-policing (go back and read my first post in this thread), I just said that we're all adults and it takes both self-policing and third-party-policing to keep it cool. yes, those things DO crop up sometimes, and the discussion does sometimes spiral downward---and the thread gets closed quickly, end of story. I watched it happen the other day between a couple members...it was getting a little too heated so BM closed it. Done. You'd have a point if these over-the-line incidents were happening all the time, but honestly, there's rarely more than one big political thread going at any given time, and I think that between all the mods (and other people observing who can PM the mods if they see fit), it's never gotten to a point that's a big problem. Well...once in awhile it has, but that usually ends in suspensions or bans.

But again, I never said we should just rely on self-policing.

 

[olllllo]

Some posts and threads are deleted. No one see it all, mods included. Sheer volume prevents any one individual to see everything deleted or not.

No one should ever expect to be called an ugly name.

That is something that we should be able to agree upon.

 

[adrock]

Evan argues that the HBT community should be self-policing in discussion threads, but time after time we see the community is not up to the task. Eventually words and phrases like "stupid" or "hysterical hyper-emotional ranting" crop up, and the discussion spirals downward.

While I can't deny that this happens at times in the middle of a heated argument, it's been my experience that this behavior often gets smacked down pretty effectively by other HBT members before it gets too ugly. That may not be self-policing in the way we've defined it, but the community is policing itself. It would be unfair to not point out that people occasionally call other people names when talking about autolysis, or SS vs AL, or any number of other things on this forum (albeit not as much). If that's the reasoning behind not discussing certain topics, then the community is not up to the task of discussing anything civilly.

I second Evan!'s point that this happens much more rarely than we're implying here..........I'd also have to agree with the earlier statement that this would become a non-issue after the presidential race whether action is taken or not. It's just a heated time, is all.

EDIT: Evan! wrote all my points before me, thus proving that he is indeed my Virginian doppelganger..........No you sickos, I said Virginian!

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

But, Evan, I don't believe it to be that hypothetical. I've seen discussion on other boards blow up with folks who had been friendly for a long time become bitter in all their dealings with each other on the boards, with the end result being the exodus of members who were valued for their knowledge around the central purpose of the board.

Like others here, I've been fooling around on discussion boards since they were single-modem BBSes. Over the years, I've seen hot-button issues damage a friendly message board, from SF&F, to writing, to amateur radio, to photography to others I've probably forgotten. In my experience, it's fairly common to happen. It may not be nor become an issue here, but I don't think the potential is quite as hypothetical as the antics displayed in Reefer Madness.

Rick

I've been a moderator on a board for artists, and I've been kicked off a board for artists too. Neither had relevance to the other, and this board bears little resemblence to both. This board is it's own entity, and IMO should be allowed to evolve independently.

 

[BierMuncher]

Completely .

Anyone have a good Chimay Blue clone?

 

[Rick_R]

It's up to the ones who are making the assertion that this is a problem to 'prove a positive' if their position is to be given credence.

Perhaps true, but if you fall off a twenty story building it doesn't hurt for the first nineteen floors; that doesn't mean you can't see it coming. While I have seen heated debate, I agree I've seen little (though some) bleed-over to date -- but I think the potential is there.

Hey, I'm not planning on leaving either way (unless tossed); just giving my opinion.

Rick

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

Completely .

Anyone have a good Chimay Blue clone?

Nope, but while we're off topic....can I ask if anyone has a good Belgian Dubbel recipe? I've seen a few in the recipe database, but none that have received stellar reviews.

 

[BigKahuna]

ALSO Bit I finally made it to a big enough beer store to see Chimay beer in the fridge....I didn't get any because we were out of town for a few days....but I did finally see it!

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Perhaps true, but if you fall off a twenty story building it doesn't hurt for the first nineteen floors; that doesn't mean you can't see it coming. While I have seen heated debate, I agree I've seen little (though some) bleed-over to date -- but I think the potential is there.

Hey, I'm not planning on leaving either way (unless tossed); just giving my opinion.

Rick

That's true, but a bad analogy. In a forum one can avoid seeing the mess at any time with a single click

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Nope, but while we're off topic....can I ask if anyone has a good Belgian Dubbel recipe? I've seen a few in the recipe database, but none that have received stellar reviews.

It's kind of annoying when beer talk spills into a thread intended for politigous debate too ya' know!!

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

Not sure if anyone has noticed...but as we continue to argue about this, the percentage of votes for "Yes" is shrinking.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Not sure if anyone has noticed...but as we continue to argue about this, the percentage of votes for "Yes" is shrinking.

But as was pointed out in another post, we must also take into account the opinions of the people who didn't vote......I reckon that's another 200 votes in favour of whatever MY opinion is!

 

[Fingers]

But as was pointed out in another post, we must also take into account the opinions of the people who didn't vote......I reckon that's another 200 votes in favour of whatever MY opinion is!

Isn't that what happened in 2000? Oops. We haven't started yet.

Disregard that last comment.

 

[Rick_R]

In a forum one can avoid seeing the mess at any time with a single click

Not if the splatter hits everywhere.

At this point, though, I think the horse is long dead; I'll end my participation in this thread with a statement that I think the mods have done a good job on this board to date in keeping everything under reasonable control. Regardless of the outcome of this discussion (i.e., what TxBrew decides) I'm sure they'll continue to make every effort in keeping us all happy participants.

*cou-suckup-gh*



Rick

 

[Evan!]

Perhaps true, but if you fall off a twenty story building it doesn't hurt for the first nineteen floors; that doesn't mean you can't see it coming. While I have seen heated debate, I agree I've seen little (though some) bleed-over to date -- but I think the potential is there.

Hey, I'm not planning on leaving either way (unless tossed); just giving my opinion.

Rick

The potential is always there, Rick. I know that as well as anyone does. And I'd hate to see it happen---but unlike your analogy, it's not like we'll be going along fine, fine, fine, then one day it all implodes and we're suddenly 4chan and everyone's like "how'd that happen, I never saw it coming!" My opinion is that, while it certainly has the potential to devolve past a point that is enjoyable, that devolution won't happen overnight and thus can be approached on a "play it by ear" basis. Keep it as it is (or, just designate a special politics subforum...even put it behind the paywall if you want), and if it gets bad, and passes a threshold that the community cannot handle itself, then I'll be the first person to jump on board with your "ban plan". But unlike jumping off of a building, the people who run this forum always retain their ability to hoist it back up if it gets too far. It's not like it's now or never. In six months, if it's really nasty around here, they could still just say BAM and ban politics and religion.

 

[shafferpilot]

I'm sure glad we can remain civil while discussing this...

Your choice of words speaks volumes about this topic. Evan argues that the HBT community should be self-policing in discussion threads, but time after time we see the community is not up to the task. Eventually words and phrases like "stupid" or "hysterical hyper-emotional ranting" crop up, and the discussion spirals downward.

Ever watch political debate in England? They call each other names, they throw stuff, they spit.... They're passionette about their beliefs. When they enter those debates, they expect to behave like that and people expect them to behave like that. It's ok to accept that. Yeah, I came to HBT to learn about brewing... but I come back to learn about life. Cut off the inspired arguments of politics and faith, you're cutting off the opportunity for each of us to learn about and understand each other.

 

[Philip1993]

Which again, is not supported by the poll results. Don't make assumptions, don't over-simplify. Adhere to the specific language of the poll when analyzing the data.

Some people voted yes because they don't read the discussions. Others voted yes *IF* these discussions were confined to their own dedicated (and in some cases hidden) forum. It appears to me that these people don't think political discussions benefit the forum, since they take pains not to read them, and would prefer they be kept out of plain sight. Clearly they constitute a less than ringing endorsement.

What was that you said about not making assumptions. The comment just before you made a handful of assumptions...

Hey, i like to talk about ****ies and BBQ as much as the next guy

You missed my point. There are probably just as many people who find that just as undesirable as the political threads. And the accepted method of control for that has been to isolate and tell people to stay out or deal with what they see. And that seems like a perfectly reasonable solution to this issue as well.

But, Evan, I don't believe it to be that hypothetical. I've seen discussion on other boards blow up

And I've seen.... Like Evan said, anecdote vs. anecdote. We could volley all day.

And when was the last time you saw a verbal fight on HBO about ****s or BBQ?

It's not about the fights, it's about their impact on the desire of the members to hang out here. If you are worried that two people battling over politics is going to run good people off, why are you not also worried that adult material will? Very simple. One doesn't bother you, so it's not a problem. The other does bother you, and hence is a detriment to the whole existence of HBT. That's not reasonable logic.

Perhaps true, but if you fall off a twenty story building it doesn't hurt for the first nineteen floors; that doesn't mean you can't see it coming. While I have seen heated debate, I agree I've seen little (though some) bleed-over to date -- but I think the potential is there.

That's because the outcome of a 20 story fall is certain. As you acknowledged earlier, the downfall of a this whole BBS as result of political/religious threads is somewhat more nebulous.

Not sure if anyone has noticed...but as we continue to argue about this, the percentage of votes for "Yes" is shrinking.

I did. I was wondering if it was this thread or the day vs. evening thing. Tonights voted will be interesting.

I think the mods have done a good job on this board to date in keeping everything under reasonable control. Regardless of the outcome of this discussion (i.e., what TxBrew decides) I'm sure they'll continue to make every effort in keeping us all happy participants.

+1

*cou-suckup-gh*

+2

I'm pointing out that a statement was made and presented as fact. We do not have that fact.

Now you're just being argumentative. Which is one of the reasons battles break out here to begin with....

Any reasonable person knows what I means and what I was trying to say.

 

[olllllo]

Homework.
Everyone go here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/search.php?do=process&replyless=1&replylimit=0&exclude=30

and post as many time there as you have here.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

What was that you said about not making assumptions. The comment just before you made a handful of assumptions...

Yes, those would be counter-assumptions. You didn't expect to assume at me and not be assumed back, did you?

 

[Philip1993]

I'm sure glad we can remain civil while discussing this...

Eventually words and phrases like "stupid" or "hysterical hyper-emotional ranting" crop up, and the discussion spirals downward.

While I agree with your post I general, I would challenge you to explain why calling someone "immature" is acceptable, but calling them "hysterical" is not

 

[olllllo]

Now you're just being argumentative. Any reasonable person knows what I means and what I was trying to say. The rest (i.e. ollllo) are just trying to be difficult and argumentative. Which is one of the reasons battles break out here to begin with....

No not at all. I made no comment on your conclusions. I think you are now attributing things to me that are baseless.