Plum Wine - First Brew

[Benjammin]

Hi all,

This is my first post and my first brew!

I need some advice as I am halfway through my first plum wine brew. After one week in the demijohn I racked the wine. There was about an inch layer of sediment on top of the wine, the racking reduced the sediment to about 1cm.

I tried the wine at this point and it was still very sweet but slightly alcoholic. So I crushed a campden tablet and syphoned the wine back into another demijohn.

So now, about two weeks in, a week after racking, the wine is still bubbling away quite rapidly. The campden tablet slowed fermentation down for a bit after racking. Bubbling went from every 30 seconds to every minute. Now its back at every 30 seconds again.

Here's my question:

Now the sediment is sinking and rising from the bottom.

Is this normal and do I need to do anything?

 

[Frognostic]

Sediment rising and falling is normal, it will cease when fermentation has stopped.

The same thing happens when you add raisins or some other fruit to the vessel; they rise to the top, sink to the bottom and sometimes float at different depths like submarines.

When they stay put at the bottom of the container it's a good indication that it's done but you need to check with a hydrometer to be on the safe side.

The fact that it is dropping to the bottom at all is good because plums can really make for a cloudy beverage.

I think if the sediment, be it plant material or yeast cells, is suspended in the liquid it can develop some off notes and I have noticed that before with a cider I made and it only cleared up when the sediment dropped out of suspension. I am having such a problem with a mead I made that still has yeasty particulate clouding (and stinking) it up.

Having a transparent beverage with a distinctive colour is more appealing to the eye, I think, than something opaque and milky-looking.

 

[Benjammin]

Thanks, it was quite clear and now its become cloudy and milky looking. My instinct is to leave it, as I have only just racked it. Am I right in saying that I should leave it alone now until the bubbling stops?

 

[Frognostic]

Absolutely.

Leave it until the bubbling stops then rack it again off the sediment.

 

[edues]

In the picture is that the first time you racked it? If its racked in that picture you don't want that much headspace. If you can put in something smaller. In time and after some rackings the sediment will be racked off. So don't worry. I too had a mead do that... Clear and cloud back up. I racked it when I noticed it to get the mead away from the dead yeast. When I racked the mead I found that the cloudyness was the lees clinging to the side of the glass. Because when it was in its new vessel it was clear. But yeast does like to start back up after a racking. Just reamber that whatever the wine is sitting in for a long time there's a good chance it will pick up them flavors. Whatever the flavors are.

 

[Benjammin]

Thanks for all your help. Yes that is the wine in the pic after racking. I did a good job at putting the plum fruit juice through a muslin bag and a sieve before bottling it in the demijohn so I'm not worried too much about what it's sitting in.

Unfortunately I don't have anything smaller, I'll leave it and report back when its finished bubbling!

In the meantime, I might just start on some cider in another demijohn!

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for all your help. Yes that is the wine in the pic after racking. I did a good job at putting the plum fruit juice through a muslin bag and a sieve before bottling it in the demijohn so I'm not worried too much about what it's sitting in.

Unfortunately I don't have anything smaller, I'll leave it and report back when its finished bubbling!

In the meantime, I might just start on some cider in another demijohn!

After you rack, it's imperative to have NO headspace. So the wine must be moved to a smaller jug where it is topped up with less than 2 inches to the bung. You have to find something smaller if you are going to make small batches of wine- a glass 1/2 jug, or a 1 gallon jug, wine bottles, etc- and a bung to fit. Otherwise, you will ruin the wine and not have a drinkable product and just waste time and money.

 

[Benjammin]

After you rack, it's imperative to have NO headspace. So the wine must be moved to a smaller jug where it is topped up with less than 2 inches to the bung. You have to find something smaller if you are going to make small batches of wine- a glass 1/2 jug, or a 1 gallon jug, wine bottles, etc- and a bung to fit. Otherwise, you will ruin the wine and not have a drinkable product and just waste time and money.

Why is this so Yooper? I used a campden tablet and sterilised the jug, what difference does the space make?

I am using a bung and airlock filled with water anyway.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Space is air, air contains oxygen. Oxygen is bad for wine (after initial fermentation).

 

[Benjammin]

The fermentation process hasn't completed. I was planning to wait until it stops bubbling and then move the liquid to a separate container. Until fermentation has completed will it be okay in this container?

 

[Benjammin]

Can I just say that the last two posters comments aren't necessary. DoctorCAD and Yooper, you clearly haven't read the thread properly and scaremongering on a forum where people need help isn't helpful.

The demijohn is protected from outside oxygen with a bung and a water seal in the bubbler. Therefore any oxygen in the jar will be converted to CO2 from the fermentation process. In addition a crushed campden tablet was used to promote anti-oxidisation.

 

[Yooper]

Can I just say that the last two posters comments aren't necessary. DoctorCAD and Yooper, you clearly haven't read the thread properly and scaremongering on a forum where people need help isn't helpful.

The demijohn is protected from outside oxygen with a bung and a water seal in the bubbler. Therefore any oxygen in the jar will be converted to CO2 from the fermentation process. In addition a crushed campden tablet was used to promote anti-oxidisation.

Well, sorry you see the Laws of Physics as "scaremongering". Perhaps you may want to do some research on the oxygen permeability on both rubber and silicone bungs, as well as the oxygen permeability through liquid in airlocks, and the plastic airlocks themselves before accusing long time winemakers of using scare tactics to make good wine?

I read every post very very carefully. So stating that I "clearly haven't the thread properly" and am avoiding providing helpful advice is really not a very nice thing to say- you said you needed help. Your biggest problem is clearly the huge amount of headspace. If you don't want to hear that, then perhaps a forum that doesn't offer any helpful constructive criticism is a much better fit for you. You said this is your first batch- and I've been doing this for more than 25 years. Perhaps instead of getting defensive about how YOU will be the first winemaker ever to defy the laws of physics, you could listen to advice since you asked for it. PS- oxygen is never "converted to C02" in a fermentation process, or any other process. Oxygen is oxygen, and CO2 is not. Co2 is produced by yeast "eating" sugars and producing ethanol and c02 as a result. (yes, that is overly simplistic, but it is generally a halfway decent explanation of yeast metabolism for those who didn't take science in high school or college).

Perhaps even a very simplified non-scientific written paper will help? http://www.mocon.com/assets/documents/PPS_Article_highq.pdf (you have to scroll a bit to get to the permeability of rubber and silicone bungs, plastic airlocks, and carboy caps.

If you choose to ignore the advice, that's fine. You certainly aren't required to take anyone's advice and if you make wine that you love without taking precautions against oxygenation, that is great. But this is a forum, and experts will opine on poor technique, and noobie winemakers will read it as well and expect good advice. So I cannot suddenly say that something is satisfactory in winemaking if I don't think so. Luckily, even though I've been making wine for over 25 years, you don't have to agree and you can make your wine however you like.

The real test of a good wine is the enjoyment of the drinker, after all.

 

[Benjammin]

What an egotistical, non-logical, long-winded rattle of a response. Its so long winded I have put the quote under my response so people don't have to go through and read all of it again.

So by your theory, everyone's wine is going to go off because their bungs and plastic airlocks aren't good enough? That is scaremongering.

You are just causing unnecessary concern for people who just want the basics. Now, according to you, all of our equipment is substandard? What a loon.

What a shame it is for this forum to have you as admin or even the owner. You are clearly a tired old man and I won't be taking any advice from you. I'll name my first wine after you, Yooper, because if it ends up tasting sour, it would be a perfect dedication.

1. In your rant below you fail to mention the campden tablet which was used to promote anti-oxidisation.

2. Carbon dioxide is heavier than Oxygen (my turn to give you a lecture on science now), which is why during the fermentation process, the wine will mostly be sitting underneath the co2 being created.
http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=2966

Well, sorry you see the Laws of Physics as "scaremongering". Perhaps you may want to do some research on the oxygen permeability on both rubber and silicone bungs, as well as the oxygen permeability through liquid in airlocks, and the plastic airlocks themselves before accusing long time winemakers of using scare tactics to make good wine?

I read every post very very carefully. So stating that I "clearly haven't the thread properly" and am avoiding providing helpful advice is really not a very nice thing to say- you said you needed help. Your biggest problem is clearly the huge amount of headspace. If you don't want to hear that, then perhaps a forum that doesn't offer any helpful constructive criticism is a much better fit for you. You said this is your first batch- and I've been doing this for more than 25 years. Perhaps instead of getting defensive about how YOU will be the first winemaker ever to defy the laws of physics, you could listen to advice since you asked for it. PS- oxygen is never "converted to C02" in a fermentation process, or any other process. Oxygen is oxygen, and CO2 is not. Co2 is produced by yeast "eating" sugars and producing ethanol and c02 as a result. (yes, that is overly simplistic, but it is generally a halfway decent explanation of yeast metabolism for those who didn't take science in high school or college).

Perhaps even a very simplified non-scientific written paper will help? http://www.mocon.com/assets/documents/PPS_Article_highq.pdf (you have to scroll a bit to get to the permeability of rubber and silicone bungs, plastic airlocks, and carboy caps.

If you choose to ignore the advice, that's fine. You certainly aren't required to take anyone's advice and if you make wine that you love without taking precautions against oxygenation, that is great. But this is a forum, and experts will opine on poor technique, and noobie winemakers will read it as well and expect good advice. So I cannot suddenly say that something is satisfactory in winemaking if I don't think so. Luckily, even though I've been making wine for over 25 years, you don't have to agree and you can make your wine however you like.

The real test of a good wine is the enjoyment of the drinker, after all.

 

[edues]

Going to pick my second batch of plumb tomorrow. Plumb was my first too. An what an leaning experience that was! Lost about half the 5 gallons to the sediment, and about 6 bottles dew to them exploding. (I tried to rush them so I could give as gifts for x mas) tomorrow going to pop one of the survivor's for the first time and start an other batch. You never forget your first! Good luck with yours!

 

[MindenMan]

Benjamin, what a total ass you are being! Yooper is an authority when it comes to fermenting fruit into wine. If you aren't willing to listen to the advice offered then don't, but don't trash the educated knowledge people offer. How about this: go find another website, and stay away from this one. Posters like you are the ones that drive away the noob's due to the the friction and back biting being caused that has no place occurring here. Just quietly go away, and when you grow up, come back and apologize to Yooper.

 

[Benjammin]

"Posters like you are the ones that drive away the noobs"

Are you reading what you write before you post it?

I am the noob and it's posters like you and Yooper who are driving me away!

We come here for advice and you and Yooper are condescending and rude. I will go somewhere else. On the whole, the responses have been quite helpful and informative. Thank you Edues. Then there are people like you and Yooper.

I will not apologise for being talked to like a school child. You both should be banned from this forum because I tell you, you won't get the "noobs" coming here with your attitudes and condescension. Do you both get out much?

The wine will hereby be named Yooper MindenMan

 

[edues]

Wow!!!! Peeps! Relax have a sip of wine. Everyone has there own way of doing things. If you like what you make that's all that matters. If you don't keep an ear open to new ideas.

 

[Benjammin]

I am open to new ideas I just want people to know, but Yooper didn't explain himself on his first post.

Then he proceeded to send me an article that basically questions the capability of all the brewing equipment available on the market! This isn't being helpful to a newbie, its blinding them with complex brewing science that just isn't necessary.

We might as well all go out and buy laboratory level equipment then!

No one has yet come back to me on my response on using the campden tablet and the fact the wine is still fermenting?

 

[brrman]

No one has yet come back to me on my response on using the campden tablet and the fact the wine is still fermenting?

Honestly, you have a thin skin, Benjammin, and I suggest you come back when you figure out how to deal with criticism (which you asked for).

Yooper is a personality of knowledge around here, well respected and has never treated new people badly. Your reaction to Yooper's first response was unnecessary and combative after you received information you didn't want to hear. You got facts, not scaremongering - you go tell your mechanic that he is scaremongering when he says you need to change the oil in your car and see what kind of reaction you get.

No one has responded to you because you obviously are not appreciative of anyone's advice.

 

[edues]

Some ppl here are very advanced. Best thing is to take nothing personal. A year in wine making and I am still feel new. Take the info the vets have to offer and just do you're own thing. After all this isn't Facebook thank God!!!

 

[Benjammin]

I asked for advice not criticism. Some of you have been very helpful thank you.

Honestly, you have a thin skin, Benjammin, and I suggest you come back when you figure out how to deal with criticism (which you asked for).

Yooper is a personality of knowledge around here, well respected and has never treated new people badly. Your reaction to Yooper's first response was unnecessary and combative after you received information you didn't want to hear. You got facts, not scaremongering - you go tell your mechanic that he is scaremongering when he says you need to change the oil in your car and see what kind of reaction you get.

No one has responded to you because you obviously are not appreciative of anyone's advice.

 

[Benjammin]

I am pleased to say that I appear to have broken the 'Laws of Physics' as my first batch of Yooper MindenMan tastes wonderful. This will be my last post. I think I have made my point about this forum. It has outdated members just as old as the web design.

P.S

Look at that headspace in the bottle!