Pliny the Elder, Really? Whats the hype?

[emjay]

To those of you calling Pliny just another good IPA - are you intentionally considering DIPA and IPA the same thing, or are you just not aware that it is a DIPA?

It's actually somewhere in between (due to it being so UNbalanced). The definition one chooses depends of what guidelines they prefer and which particular dimensions they think are most important in defining the difference.

 

[jigidyjim]

It's actually somewhere in between (due to it being so UNbalanced). The definition one chooses depends of what guidelines they prefer and which particular dimensions they think are most important in defining the difference.

In what way is it in between? RR calls it DIPA. The BJCP lists it as an example for imperial. Its ABV is out of range for IPA.

 

[jkendrick]

In what way is it in between? RR calls it DIPA. The BJCP lists it as an example for imperial. Its ABV is out of range for IPA.

I kinda consider it an IPA myself. When compared to other similar west coast beers such as Ruination, Union Jack, Odell IPA, Green Flash West Coast IPA, etc... These are all in the 7-8% abv range and mostly referred to as IPAs. It may not fit standard guidelines, but to compare like beers, that's how I look at it.

 

[jigidyjim]

I love how everyone calls Pliny balanced. It's *much less* balanced than the vast majority of DIPAs... and that's largely what makes it so good and drinkable.

You'll have to explain that one more - since balance to me is what makes a drink enjoyable.

 

[emjay]

In what way is it in between? RR calls it DIPA. The BJCP lists it as an example for imperial. Its ABV is out of range for IPA.

I know homebrewers tend to think of the BJCP as the be-all end-all of style definitions, but it's really not. They set guidelines for the purposes of their competitions, nothing more.

And even in the BJCP, Pliny's OG better fits as an IPA, just scraping the very bottom of the IIPA range (and even doing THAT in past versions of the guidelines), with the OG even falling below the guidelines for BOTH styles - if one is going to be a super BJCP style nazi, it would actually be disqualified based on the numbers (that's not how competitions work, but still). Point is, taking such a strict and narrow BJCP-centric view on styles doesn't magically invalidate everything else.

 

[jkendrick]

You'll have to explain that one more - since balance to me is what makes a drink enjoyable.

I don't want to speak for anyone else. But for me, it has almost a complete lack of malt backbone. It is intentionally unbalanced. For reference try drinking a DFh 90 Minute right after a Pliny. To me the 90 Minute tastes almost cloyingly sweet by comparison, I like my IPAs unbalanced in the west coast style.

 

[emjay]

You'll have to explain that one more - since balance to me is what makes a drink enjoyable.

Balanced in the ACTUAL, more absolute brewing definition of a certain "balanced" malt/gravity to hops/bitterness ratio.

ie, a truly "balanced" IIPA-like beer would usually be considered a barleywine in steady. And Pliny falls further from this balance than even the vast majority of other IIPAs do.

Enjoyable means enjoyable, and balanced means balanced. The two are entirely separate concepts.

 

[bob1852]

I know homebrewers tend to think of the BJCP as the be-all end-all of style definitions, but it's really not. They set guidelines for the purposes of their competitions, nothing more.

And even in the BJCP, Pliny's OG better fits as an IPA, just scraping the very bottom of the IIPA range (and even doing THAT in past versions of the guidelines), with the OG even falling below the guidelines for BOTH styles - if one is going to be a super BJCP style nazi, it would actually be disqualified based on the numbers (that's not how competitions work, but still). Point is, taking such a strict and narrow BJCP-centric view on styles doesn't magically invalidate everything else.

1.070 OG and 8.0% ABV are in the 14C range. Not sure what you're getting at.

I don't want to speak for anyone. But for me, it has almost a complete lack of malt backbone. It is intentionally unbalanced. For referenced try drinking a DFh 90 Minute right after a Pliny. To me the 90 Minute tastes al oat cloyingly sweet by comparison, I like my IPAs unbalanced in the west coast style.

Good comparison, and I agree.

 

[jigidyjim]

I kinda consider it an IPA myself. When compared to other similar west coast beers such as Ruination, Union Jack, Odell IPA, Green Flash West Coast IPA, etc... These are all in the 7-8% abv range and mostly referred to as IPAs. It may not fit standard guidelines, but to compare like beers, that's how I look at it.

I think that's fair. What I was thinking was that if I order an IPA without knowing anything about it I wouldn't be expecting a 8%ABV beer. But I agree that it is an arbitrary line, and when comparing to other similar beers you will find some on both sides of the line.

 

[emjay]

1.070 OG and 8.0% ABV are in the 14C range. Not sure what you're getting at.

Read it again, then? I didn't say otherwise.

Regardless, the BJCP is hardly the only authority (though on HBT, I can see how one could be led to believe otherwise), and even within the BJCP guidelines, the actual hard numbers have very little importance compared to the descriptions.

All I was really getting at was that just because the BJCP numbers happen to match a certain beer (and the FG and ARGUABLY the IBUs technically don't) doesn't automatically invalidate any other opinion or definition.

 

[bob1852]

All I was really getting at was that just because the BJCP numbers happen to match a certain beer (and the FG and ARGUABLY the IBUs technically don't) doesn't automatically invalidate any other opinion or definition.

That's why I consider Sculpin an IIPA, even though it is technically an IPA.

 

[jigidyjim]

Balanced in the ACTUAL, more absolute brewing definition of a certain "balanced" malt/gravity to hops/bitterness ratio.

ie, a truly "balanced" IIPA-like beer would usually be considered a barleywine in steady. And Pliny falls further from this balance than even the vast majority of other IIPAs do.

Enjoyable means enjoyable, and balanced means balanced. The two are entirely separate concepts.

I prefer Gordon Strong's explanation of balance:

"... beer balance is the synergy of all the components that formulate an enjoyable tasting experience: aroma, flavor... bitterness, alcohol, acidity, residual sweetness, and mouthfeel..."

"The use of words like synergy, balance, and harmony shouldn't imply that all flavors are of equal intensity... It means that the components complement each other in a pleasant way. Balance is extremely style-specific; a balanced IPA will be way more bitter than a balanced cream ale, for instance."

As I mentioned earlier, IPA/IIPA is not my style of choice - but Pliny has a balanced/harmonious/whatever experience that makes it enjoyable for me.

 

[jkendrick]

I like that definition too. That said, it simply highlights how difficult it can be to assign objective adjectives to something so subjective. I'm with you, for me Pliny and really the more west coast style of IPA in general is more enjoyable. But it is still far less malty than what IPAs have traditionally been for hundreds of years. This all sort of begs the question as to how much style really matters anymore. Is a 7-8% abv an IPA or a DIPA? Does the relative lack of malt mean it is unbalanced? I have a pro brewer friend who won a GABF medal last year after entering it in several different categories over the years. He said, "now I finally know what to call this beer" when he won. There is so much experimentation and blurring of lines these days... And I love it!

 

[kwingert]

I think Pliny is the anal sex of beer. Forbidden fruit that once attained can't help but pale slightly in comparison to the overwhelming expectations born of denial.

Best analogy ever. :rockin:

 

[LandoLincoln]

Beer snob thread! Woo!

Go over to beeradvocate with this junk.

 

[KISS Brew]

I've tried Pliney and thought it was great. All the same, I wouldn't travel across the country or pay a premium over some other great DIPAs.

My father in law put it best regarding hyped up beers (or any beer for that matter): "It's all bellywash."

 

[BrewKnurd]

Balanced in the ACTUAL, more absolute brewing definition of a certain "balanced" malt/gravity to hops/bitterness ratio.

ie, a truly "balanced" IIPA-like beer would usually be considered a barleywine in steady. And Pliny falls further from this balance than even the vast majority of other IIPAs do.

Enjoyable means enjoyable, and balanced means balanced. The two are entirely separate concepts.

for someone who is big on the bjcp not being the be all and end all of beer styles (a concept i agree with) I find it of that you so strictly adhere to what balance has to mean in the context of a beer.

On the topic of pliny, I love it. That its all.

 

[emjay]

for someone who is big on the bjcp not being the be all and end all of beer styles (a concept i agree with) I find it of that you so strictly adhere to what balance has to mean in the context of a beer.

I suppose it's just semantics, but the term just seems to lose all usefulness when it's simply equated to "good", IMO.

 

[BrewKnurd]

I suppose it's just semantics, but the term just seems to lose all usefulness when it's simply equated to "good", IMO.

Oh, I totally agree. There are plenty of beers that are unbalanced and good, and plenty that are balanced and not very good.

But I've also had beers that from an og/ibu ratio are technically more balanced than pliny but are more overwhelmingly hoppy in how in perceived them. Technically, by the numbers, they are balanced. Perception wise, not at all, at least not for me.

Part of intrigue of pliny for me is that while the hops are not balanced by malt in the traditional sense, it has a perception of balance, the source of which I confess I do not know.

Anyways, I'm not arguing whether pliny its really balanced or not, because it's largely based on individual perception, I imagine. Just trying to point out that for me and apparently some others, it has a perception of balance. It may taste horribly unbalanced to others, and that's a-ok.

 

[jigidyjim]

Part of intrigue of pliny for me is that while the hops are not balanced by malt in the traditional sense, it has a perception of balance, the source of which I confess I do not know.

I'd love to hear more about this, if anyone can explain it. Before this thread, I actually assumed Pliny had more malt than it does. Maybe it has something to do with the weirdness around it's IBU's (which, from doing some quick searches, people seem unable to agree on whether it is 67, 100, or 200+). Or maybe it has something to do with the bitter/flavor/aroma balance that does something different. I really have no idea.

Oddly enough, I made a similar mistake with another IPA that I do like (Anchor Liberty) - thinking it's malt bill was more complex, which I discovered was wrong after finding a recipe.

I guess the real solution is to drink more IPA and improve my palate

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I prefer Gordon Strong's explanation of balance:

"... beer balance is the synergy of all the components that formulate an enjoyable tasting experience: aroma, flavor... bitterness, alcohol, acidity, residual sweetness, and mouthfeel..."

"The use of words like synergy, balance, and harmony shouldn't imply that all flavors are of equal intensity... It means that the components complement each other in a pleasant way. Balance is extremely style-specific; a balanced IPA will be way more bitter than a balanced cream ale, for instance."

I think this nails it. Pliny is way unbalanced from a BU:GU ratio. It's got absolute loads of hops. From a "calculated" IBU range, it's around 200+, but supposedly they've had it tested and it's in the high 90's. But then there are still just loads of flavor, aroma, and dry hops in the recipe. So it's clearly an overwhelmingly hoppy beer.

And at 8%, you'd think it would kick your taste buds into the next county...

...but it doesn't. It's an eminently *drinkable* 8% ridiculously hoppy beer. After you drink a Pliny, you don't take your taste buds to the ICU -- you want another Pliny.

That's why I consider it "balanced" -- it's not actually "balanced" in a malt vs. hops sense, but the ability to make such an unbalanced beer so damned drinkable is the key.