Please help me in understanding mash pH

[GotPushrods]

tap water in the US is VASTLY more regulated and tested than bottled

Only the compounds that can hurt you or give you cancer.

The aesthetic mineral components (what are important for brewing) have very wide acceptable ranges. Here in Phoenix, it can rain 20 miles north of me, and even a 50/50 mix of my water to RO goes from decent porter to decent pale ale water. In a matter of DAYS! And the report comes out once a year. It's not worth trying in some places, it's just too variable.

Can you imagine how expensive water would be if it was required to be 5 ppm calcium and 30 ppm total alkalinity?? Well it would stink...literally because nobody would shower.

 

[Onlooker]

I realize this isn't for everybody but if you want to be in control of your water this is the simplest way to do it.

It's what I do now for my water, which is highly alkaline at 342 total alkalinity (and just about every mineral in the water analysis is quite high ). And I thank AJ for his guidance in the primer.

I only wish I had started this right off the bat, but I fell for the "if your water tastes good it's OK for brewing, (even extract)" advice. I'm still waiting to taste my first brew made this way, but the others have a bite to them, and aftertaste. Disappointing.

 

[GotPushrods]

It's what I do now for my water, which is highly alkaline at 342 total alkalinity (and just about every mineral in the water analysis is quite high ). And I thank AJ for his guidance in the primer.

I only wish I had started this right off the bat, but I fell for the "if your water tastes good it's OK for brewing, (even extract)" advice. I'm still waiting to taste my first brew made this way, but the others have a bite to them, and aftertaste. Disappointing.

I used to live in MO, and I can tell you that the first beer I ever did RO + salts was the fastest I've ever kicked a keg. Disappointing and amazing at the same time.

 

[JeffoC6]

It's what I do now for my water, which is highly alkaline at 342 total alkalinity (and just about every mineral in the water analysis is quite high ). And I thank AJ for his guidance in the primer.

I only wish I had started this right off the bat, but I fell for the "if your water tastes good it's OK for brewing, (even extract)" advice. I'm still waiting to taste my first brew made this way, but the others have a bite to them, and aftertaste. Disappointing.

So you had the same taste that I had?
What exactly are you doing now with your water?

 

[Onlooker]

So you had the same taste that I had?
What exactly are you doing now with your water?

Well, it's tough to know if it's the same or not, but it sounds like it may be; though my taste experience doesn't sound as extreme as yours. But different people have different taste palates and different thresholds.

I got a RO filtering set up (I figured it was better in the long run than buying it by the gallon. And I use it to mix with StarSan for a more stable solution that will last a long time.) and use the guidance in the primer, for the most part.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

I've tweaked it a bit using this: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/ and AJ's and mabrungard's advice on this forum. It's been a bit of a learning process but ultimately the end process is quite simple once you nail it down. It's not like you've got to try to adapt to a constantly changing water chemistry. That would be a pain, for sure.

I have been using 90% RO and 10% tap water. I could use 100% RO but I thought I'd try it this way first. Then I add about 2-3% sauermalz (acidulated malt) to my mash and usually 4 grams of Calc. Chloride to just the mash. That gives me a good overall water profile for the light hybrid type beers I've brewed this way. And I'll make other tweaks as necessary as I brew other beer styles (like maybe dropping the sauermalz if the grain bill gives me the pH I want on it's own). And I bought a pH meter.

The jury's still out but I'm confident (hopeful?) that I'll get good results. And I may try the next brew with 100% RO for comparison.

I understand your frustration here, just be glad you've only brewed 1 gal batches and not 5 gal, as I did! But you don't have to become a chemistry expert to find YOUR solution. Once you get there it will just be a small bit more in the prep of your mash.

I sure hope you figure it out and get some great beer.

 

[JeffoC6]

Well, it's tough to know if it's the same or not, but it sounds like it may be; though my taste experience doesn't sound as extreme as yours. But different people have different taste palates and different thresholds.

I got a RO filtering set up (I figured it was better in the long run than buying it by the gallon. And I use it to mix with StarSan for a more stable solution that will last a long time.) and use the guidance in the primer, for the most part.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

I've tweaked it a bit using this: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/ and AJ's and mabrungard's advice on this forum. It's been a bit of a learning process but ultimately the end process is quite simple once you nail it down. It's not like you've got to try to adapt to a constantly changing water chemistry. That would be a pain, for sure.

I have been using 90% RO and 10% tap water. I could use 100% RO but I thought I'd try it this way first. Then I add about 2-3% sauermalz (acidulated malt) to my mash and usually 4 grams of Calc. Chloride to just the mash. That gives me a good overall water profile for the light hybrid type beers I've brewed this way. And I'll make other tweaks as necessary as I brew other beer styles (like maybe dropping the sauermalz if the grain bill gives me the pH I want on it's own). And I bought a pH meter.

The jury's still out but I'm confident (hopeful?) that I'll get good results. And I may try the next brew with 100% RO for comparison.

I understand your frustration here, just be glad you've only brewed 1 gal batches and not 5 gal, as I did! But you don't have to become a chemistry expert to find YOUR solution. Once you get there it will just be a small bit more in the prep of your mash.

I sure hope you figure it out and get some great beer.

Thanks man. I'm trying to figure it out before Sunday though, as I'm going to be brewing EdWort's Oktoberfest (with Ale yeast) and don't want to go down the same road I've been going down. I don't know where I can get RO water around me, so based on Yooper's advise, I'm going to get some distilled water and add some calcium chloride to each gallon of water that I use. Hope it works :/

 

[Onlooker]

I don't know where I can get RO water around me, so based on Yooper's advise, I'm going to get some distilled water and add some calcium chloride to each gallon of water that I use. Hope it works :/

RO or distilled, pretty much equivalent for our purposes here.

 

[JeffoC6]

So as an update to this thread, I have since watched BobbyM's youtube videos on water chemistry, and it made a little more sense to me.
I've also gone onto Ward Lab's site and they are sending me a sampling bottle and I'm going to get the W6 Household Mineral test on my tap water.
After I get the test results back, I'm going to try out this EZ Water Calculator (same that I saw Bobby use on the youtube videos) and input my results.

I just read back through this thread again and am no longer completely lost. While I'm still far from understanding, I at least now have a base understanding as to what's going on. I'm hoping you can all teach me moving forward, and help me hone in on building my water, be it the tap water I have or distilled water.

 

[Yooper]

So as an update to this thread, I have since watched BobbyM's youtube videos on water chemistry, and it made a little more sense to me.
I've also gone onto Ward Lab's site and they are sending me a sampling bottle and I'm going to get the W6 Household Mineral test on my tap water.
After I get the test results back, I'm going to try out this EZ Water Calculator (same that I saw Bobby use on the youtube videos) and input my results.

I just read back through this thread again and am no longer completely lost. While I'm still far from understanding, I at least now have a base understanding as to what's going on. I'm hoping you can all teach me moving forward, and help me hone in on building my water, be it the tap water I have or distilled water.

I know it's overwhelming at first. But if I can learn it and have a vague understanding, I"m sure it'll come easier for you!

I found that EZ water was a good place to start, and as I learned more and more I started using Bru'n water. Even if the Bru'n water spreadsheet seems over your head right now, I'd suggest downloading it and reading through it. He's got lots of information under a tab called "Water Knowledge". That will help with understanding, and he's got good explanations there.

Another place to learn a bit about water that really helped me is in Kai Troester's website, braukaiser.com. He also references AJ deLange's paper on akalinity and hardness, which is worth reading.

One of the things I like best about this forum is that brewing water experts like ajdelange have been great about explaining this when I've asked and it's really helped me understand the basics.

 

[JeffoC6]

Thanks Yoop.

As an aside, I opened up one of my Cascade and Chinook IPA's the other night that had been in the fridge for about 2 weeks, fermented at 3, and bottle conditioned at 4 (weeks).

When I opened it and poured, the hop aroma was completely overtaken by a metallic/astringency bite. My first sip made me shiver and I couldn't taste any hops. It was simply bitter, but not a good IPA bitter.

It's gotta be from my water/mash/pH...I know there isn't an infection or sanitation problem, and the beer itself was carbed perfectly.

I really want to get to the bottom of this, and I think figuring out my water/etc. is the best place to start so I can start tasting and experiencing IPA's (and other brews) the way that they should be experienced, rather than all IPA's tasting the same.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yoop.

As an aside, I opened up one of my Cascade and Chinook IPA's the other night that had been in the fridge for about 2 weeks, fermented at 3, and bottle conditioned at 4 (weeks).

When I opened it and poured, the hop aroma was completely overtaken by a metallic/astringency bite. My first sip made me shiver and I couldn't taste any hops. It was simply bitter, but not a good IPA bitter.

It's gotta be from my water/mash/pH...I know there isn't an infection or sanitation problem, and the beer itself was carbed perfectly.

I really want to get to the bottom of this, and I think figuring out my water/etc. is the best place to start so I can start tasting and experiencing IPA's (and other brews) the way that they should be experienced, rather than all IPA's tasting the same.

You will! Just using distilled water and adding back the CaCl2 will make such a big difference in the current batch that you'll be hooked into this from now on. I promise.

I finally bought my own RO system this spring, after hauling water from the store for a couple of years. Once they got rid of the "water machine" (I guess I was the only one buying it!), I knew I couldn't go back to all tap water even though our water tastes great. I did a couple of batches using slaked lime to reduce my alkalinity but that was a huge pain for me, so I bought the RO system. That's the difference using tap water vs. RO water
with salts made in my beer! My beer was never bad before, but it just wasn't as good as it could be.

 

[Homercidal]

A step at a time and then one day you will realize you know what you are doing. You don't have to understand chemistry like Ajdelange and Martin and others to know how to adjust your water for brewing.

If I were you I'd try and find some RO and a few basic salts and just give it a go. Post a recipe and someone here will show you what they would do in order to brew that recipe.