playing around with water

[MHBT]

I am trying to dial in the water for a vienna lager..Its one of my favorite styles so im trying to master it..Anyway i been playing around with my brewing water and just want to get my water critiqued by some of you experienced lager brewers to see if im the right range for this style..i have brewed this style before and the beer came out good but did not focus much on water its time to perfect it, anyway my water profile for this beer is

(Ca 59) (Mg 0) (sodium 8) (S04 54) (chloride 68) (alkalinity -54)
est mash ph 5.36

how's it looking ? what would you adjust? thank you cheers

 

[McKnuckle]

I would say it's arguably not in need of adjustment. The only things I've heard, and worked with a bit, are:

1) Lowering Calcium to 40 ppm for lagers; and
2) Reducing or eliminating SO4 when brewing with noble hops

You could lower SO4 a bit and not boost chloride, allowing mash pH to rise into the low 5.4 range. Or you could add back a small amount of lactic acid to keep pH where it is.

These are nitpicks in my opinion, given that your water is already avoiding excessive mineral concentrations.

 

[MHBT]

I would say it's arguably not in need of adjustment. The only things I've heard, and worked with a bit, are:

1) Lowering Calcium to 40 ppm for lagers; and
2) Reducing or eliminating SO4 when brewing with noble hops

You could lower SO4 a bit and not boost chloride, allowing mash pH to rise into the low 5.4 range. Or you could add back a small amount of lactic acid to keep pH where it is.

These are nitpicks in my opinion, given that your water is already avoiding excessive mineral concentrations.

Cool thanks for your input

 

[ajdelange]

(alkalinity -54)

What does that mean?

 

[MHBT]

What does that mean?

negative 54

 

[ajdelange]

As that implies that the water's pH is less than 4.5 I doubt it's what you really mean. Did you mean Residual Alkalinity? I thought you might but a residual alkalinity of -54 with calcium at 59 means the actual alkalinity is -12 still implying the water's pH < 4.5. ???

 

[MHBT]

As that implies that the water's pH is less than 4.5 I doubt it's what you really mean. Did you mean Residual Alkalinity? I thought you might but a residual alkalinity of -54 with calcium at 59 means the actual alkalinity is -12 still implying the water's pH < 4.5. ???

Im using distilled water as my base its ph is 7 and has zero alkalinity..so adding calcium chloride and calcium sulfate is lowering the alkalinity even more..this is what it says on the brun water spreadsheet that the bicarbonates are -54

 

[ajdelange]

Adding calcium chloride or calcium sulfate can not change the alkalinity of water unless the salts are contaminated with something alkaline as they sometimes are in which case the alkalinity increases. The alkalinity of your water is still 0 (or more precisely, that of distilled water which is +2 ppm as CaCO3). There is a formal definition for alkalinity. If alkalinity is less than 0 the pH is less than 5.4 in an ISO test or 5.4 in a Ward Labs test. Bicarbonate and alkalinity are not the same though bicarbonate is typically the largest contributor to alkalinity in potable water. What -54 bicarbonate means is that if you added this water to a nominal mash by the time you get to knockout approximately 54/61 = 0.88 mEq/L of protons wouldl have been released in the reaction of malt phosphate with the calcium ions in the water. Thus this negative bicarbonate is not a property of the water but a property of the water combined with malt that has been mashed and then subjected to the kettle boil. If you attribute it to the water alone it confuses people who understand the chemistry and lots of others too.

It would be a simple matter to bring Brun water into line with the rest of the world but Martin is pretty determined not to do that. He likes it the way it is and it is, after all, his spreadsheet!

 

[MHBT]

Adding calcium chloride or calcium sulfate can not change the alkalinity of water unless the salts are contaminated with something alkaline as they sometimes are in which case the alkalinity increases. The alkalinity of your water is still 0 (or more precisely, that of distilled water which is +2 ppm as CaCO3). There is a formal definition for alkalinity. If alkalinity is less than 0 the pH is less than 5.4 in an ISO test or 5.4 in a Ward Labs test. Bicarbonate and alkalinity are not the same though bicarbonate is typically the largest contributor to alkalinity in potable water. What -54 bicarbonate means is that if you added this water to a nominal mash by the time you get to knockout approximately 54/61 = 0.88 mEq/L of protons wouldl have been released in the reaction of malt phosphate with the calcium ions in the water. Thus this negative bicarbonate is not a property of the water but a property of the water combined with malt that has been mashed and then subjected to the kettle boil. If you attribute it to the water alone it confuses people who understand the chemistry and lots of others too.

It would be a simple matter to bring Brun water into line with the rest of the world but Martin is pretty determined not to do that. He likes it the way it is and it is, after all, his spreadsheet!

Ok so what do i gotta change to make this water suitable to brew a vienna lager?

 

[ajdelange]

I'd go with the recommendations in No.2. He accuses himself of nitpicking but it is dealing with nits that will eventually get you to the perfect beer. Personally I'd start with a modest amount of calcium chloride and no gypsum with that to be possibly added later after experimenting with it in the glass while tasting a first trial beer made without any. Thereafter it is small tweaks in CaCl2 and CaSO4 level until you stumble upon what really works for you.

 

[TheHopfather]

Water is one of those things you need to play around with the find what you like. From looking around online it looks like a Vienna lager water profile would be something like;

Ca - 50-75 | SO4 - 40-120 | Cl - 50-150

If you are starting from distilled don't worry about your alkalinity number, just make sure your mash pH is in range. Your original water numbers looked fine, I'd give it a shot and make adjustments on subsequent batches if it doesn't turn out exactly how you want.

 

[MHBT]

I'd go with the recommendations in No.2. He accuses himself of nitpicking but it is dealing with nits that will eventually get you to the perfect beer. Personally I'd start with a modest amount of calcium chloride and no gypsum with that to be possibly added later after experimenting with it in the glass while tasting a first trial beer made without any. Thereafter it is small tweaks in CaCl2 and CaSO4 level until you stumble upon what really works for you.

i just removed the gypsum in the spreadsheet now the profile is

(Ca 44) (Mg 0) (sodium 8) (S04 1) (chloride 80) (bicarbonates -54)
Est mash ph 5.4

Not modest chlorides in this profile but when i lower the calcium chloride amounts its drops the calcium to low..how can i add calcium without adding chlorides? baking soda? then i start adding sodium. i cant win

 

[MHBT]

Water is one of those things you need to play around with the find what you like. From looking around online it looks like a Vienna lager water profile would be something like;

Ca - 50-75 | SO4 - 40-120 | Cl - 50-150

If you are starting from distilled don't worry about your alkalinity number, just make sure your mash pH is in range. Your original water numbers looked fine, I'd give it a shot and make adjustments on subsequent batches if it doesn't turn out exactly how you want.

Yeah i am gonna go with the original water profile and see what i learn from it...From here i will get a better idea of what direction to go next time..Thank you everyone appreciate it

 

[bluemoon737]

i just removed the gypsum in the spreadsheet now the profile is

(Ca 44) (Mg 0) (sodium 8) (S04 1) (chloride 80) (bicarbonates -54)
Est mash ph 5.4

Not modest chlorides in this profile but when i lower the calcium chloride amounts its drops the calcium to low..how can i add calcium without adding chlorides? baking soda? then i start adding sodium. i cant win

Chalk is the only way I can think of to add calcium without adding sulfates or chlorides...but it is almost impossible to get into solution from what I understand (must be added to cold water?).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

..how can i add calcium without adding chlorides? baking soda? then i start adding sodium. i cant win

Calcium Hydroxide, Slaked Lime, or Pickling Lime, with formula Ca(OH)2 would add calcium without adding chloride or sulfate ions, but the problems it brings along with it are:

1) The stuff is hazardous, and you can go blind if you get it in your eye(s).

2) It will quite noticeably raise your alkalinity.