Plate Chiller Celaning/Sanitizing

[signal2noise]

Hello all,

I've read most of the material on the board for cleaning/sanitizing a plate chiller. It ranges from pumping boiling wort through it for 15min to backflushing with oxyclean or PBW to placing the chiller in the oven at tempertures in excess of 350F for some time period.

I'd like to ask about a simpler approach. What's the concnesus on placing the chiller in a stockpot, submerged in water, and boiling it on the stove top? Followed by a backflush with hot tap water. Then before using it for a brew a quick flush with starsan?

Thoughts?

 

[passedpawn]

Hello all,

I've read most of the material on the board for cleaning/sanitizing a plate chiller. It ranges from pumping boiling wort through it for 15min to backflushing with oxyclean or PBW to placing the chiller in the oven at tempertures in excess of 350F for some time period.

I'd like to ask about a simpler approach. What's the concnesus on placing the chiller in a stockpot, submerged in water, and boiling it on the stove top? Followed by a backflush with hot tap water. Then before using it for a brew a quick flush with starsan?

Thoughts?

That sounds like a good idea, except it's nowhere as easy as pumping boiling wort through it (unless you don't have a pump). Using boiling wort gets the entire loop: hoses, couplings, and pump sanitized without starsan. I just hose it out quickly after use. No starsan, no oxyclean, no PBW.

 

[signal2noise]

Thanks. Yeah, I don't have a pump yet but I see I probably will soon.

 

[LordUlrich]

Running boiling wort through the chiller will sanitize it, but it is is still important to clean it. Crud like protein and hops will get stuck in the chiller and need to be chemicals removed. If you don't keep up on it you will have a hard time getting it clean later...I have first hand experience with a poorly cleaned chiller, once I got it cleaned I was able to double my flow rate and still hit pitching temps. Now I backflush with hot water, and then hot caustic, and still get chunks on the caustic flush. I recommend atleast backflushing with high pressure water (hose water), soaking in pbw and backflushing again to rinse. The oven is great as it will dry out the water left inside, but you can skip that if you get it dry before storage. To sanitize go ahead and boil the whole chiller and skip the starsan, boiling is far more effective.

 

[passedpawn]

Running boiling wort through the chiller will sanitize it, but it is is still important to clean it. Crud like protein and hops will get stuck in the chiller and need to be chemicals removed. If you don't keep up on it you will have a hard time getting it clean later...I have first hand experience with a poorly cleaned chiller, once I got it cleaned I was able to double my flow rate and still hit pitching temps. Now I backflush with hot water, and then hot caustic, and still get chunks on the caustic flush. I recommend atleast backflushing with high pressure water (hose water), soaking in pbw and backflushing again to rinse. The oven is great as it will dry out the water left inside, but you can skip that if you get it dry before storage. To sanitize go ahead and boil the whole chiller and skip the starsan, boiling is far more effective.

Our experiences are very different. I don't have any problems. I use a hop spider (hanging hop bag) and pellets. Perhaps I am keeping most of the crud from getting in to the plate chiller.

I've used this chiller for at least 50 10-gallon batches. Still flows like the day I got it.

 

[samc]

Even when I've used hop bags I still get break material that gets stuck inside of the chiller. I'd be willing to bet a beer that I can take passedpawns chiller and get something other than clear water to come through if I used some chemicals to clean it. Send it to me!

 

[Reelale]

Even when I've used hop bags I still get break material that gets stuck inside of the chiller. I'd be willing to bet a beer that I can take passedpawns chiller and get something other than clear water to come through if I used some chemicals to clean it. Send it to me!

Yep. IMO, you really need a caustic cleaner, and the hotter the better. You'd be surprised what lurks inside those channels. I just reverse my inlet/output when I CIP and run hot PBW through the whole system, followed by a rinse of the same temperature and a "pressure" backflush from the sink hose.

 

[passedpawn]

Even when I've used hop bags I still get break material that gets stuck inside of the chiller. I'd be willing to bet a beer that I can take passedpawns chiller and get something other than clear water to come through if I used some chemicals to clean it. Send it to me!

Alright, you talked me into it. I'll fill it with double-strength starsan tonight and this wkend I'll see what comes out.

I'm not doubting you at all. But with no drop in performance, and no infection issues, I haven't seen a need to change my simple process.

I'll take pics - these threads are so much better with pics.

 

[Henrythe9th]

I just flushed my plates chillers and herms coil with nitric acid and all kinds of nasty stuff came out of both.. mold from the herms coil!!
I always hot water flush/back flush and recirc PBW after brewing I now have a new cleaning secudule acid flush every 3 or 4 brews and am now using Peroxycetic Acid for sanitizing

 

[gnef]

Nitric and peroxyacetic acid scare me (so does caustic). This concern is the main reason why I have stuck with my immersion chiller for so long. I recall reading a thread about a guy that kept trying different ways of cleaning his therminator, and every time something kept coming out, even after repeated flushes/backflushes, baking, etc. He eventually sold it and went back to an immersion chiller with recirculation.

 

[billtzk]

I backflush hot PBW solution in a recirc loop through my chiller after each use. I run it for 20 minutes minimum, then swith directions for another few minutes. Then I pump hot water through in both directions. I'll still get a little debris coming out of it at the start of the final plain water wash.

I drain it and put it up clean. What I find a bit disturbing is that if I circulate hot PBW through it again before my next brew, I still get greenish water and bits of debris coming out.

I've been using it for three years. I haven't had any infections. Flow is still great, perhaps because I clean it very thoroughly with hot PBW after each use. But I do often feel that I was better off with the immersion chiller. It was simple, effective, easy to clean, and no worries about my wort flowing through hidden channels of unseen grunge.

 

[jma99]

I also back-flush, but I use a cheap $12 submersible garden pump.

Cal P80 Mag-Drive Pump
(This one can be found for less on Ebay!)

Works great! I use hot oxyclean and pump it for about half an hour, then flush.

No need for a $100+ pump just for cleaning your plate chiller!

 

[lschiavo]

Try blowing compressed air through it. Fill...blow out...repeat in opposite directions. You will get gunk out that circulating wont.

 

[Reelale]

I backflush hot PBW solution in a recirc loop through my chiller after each use. I run it for 20 minutes minimum, then swith directions for another few minutes. Then I pump hot water through in both directions. I'll still get a little debris coming out of it at the start of the final plain water wash.

I drain it and put it up clean. What I find a bit disturbing is that if I circulate hot PBW through it again before my next brew, I still get greenish water and bits of debris coming out.

I've been using it for three years. I haven't had any infections. Flow is still great, perhaps because I clean it very thoroughly with hot PBW after each use. But I do often feel that I was better off with the immersion chiller. It was simple, effective, easy to clean, and no worries about my wort flowing through hidden channels of unseen grunge.

The green tint of the water is not a concern. It's simply the alkaline nature of the PBW reacting with the copper inside the chiller. The same thing happens on copper fittings. Try soaking a piece of copper tubing in PBW. What needs to be removed is the solids.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

In my CFC, I use hot oxyclean, and I cycle the pump on and off. The off time results in a greater contact time, and the on time results in a "pressurized" flow. Both clean + remove junk.

M_C

 

[FSR402]

Yep. IMO, you really need a caustic cleaner, and the hotter the better.

This statement is not true. Every cleaner be it caustic or not is designed to work in a set temp range. Going above this range does not make it work better, actually just the opposite.
Also if you want to start using caustic cleaners watch what you use, some are made to work in a CO2 filled environment.

 

[Reelale]

This statement is not true. Every cleaner be it caustic or not is designed to work in a set temp range. Going above this range does not make it work better, actually just the opposite.
Also if you want to start using caustic cleaners watch what you use, some are made to work in a CO2 filled environment.

I mistakenly thought that PBW was a caustic cleaner. I realize now it's a buffered alkaline detergent with sodium carbonate. The temperature range that Fivestar recommends is 130-180F. That's what I meant by the hotter the better.

 

[Beerrific]

I heard a talk by a guy who is well respected in the homebrewing community (published books) and started/ran his own succesful brewpub for many years (now retired I think). The talk was about chilling and specific counter-flow chilling. He always used PBW as directed (temperature and concentration), never caustic. He took apart his chiller 3 times (some low number, the details are foggy). Once to prove to himself he could and 2 more times as a learning experience for his assistants/apprentices. He said every time he opened it and looked at it, it was 100% spotless.

Another interesting point from that talk was when someone asked about sanitizing by pumping boil wort through. He seemed very put off by that thought with the argument against it being why would you want to pump wort in there with the break material and hops....the very things you are trying to keep out of the chiller. He said he would only run wort through after a proper whirlpool and settling. He sanitized his with whatever acid sanitizer he was using.

 

[LordUlrich]

This statement is not true. Every cleaner be it caustic or not is designed to work in a set temp range. Going above this range does not make it work better, actually just the opposite.
Also if you want to start using caustic cleaners watch what you use, some are made to work in a CO2 filled environment.

Really, I would love to get my hands on this stuff, any idea who makes it (I work at a brewery so I do have sources home brewers don't).

Also, while I brought up caustic, I do not advocate using it unless you know what you are doing. It is nasty stuff.

 

[signal2noise]

Wow! I step away from the board for 24 hours and there are almost as many posts
I'll read through these more closely tonight and respond if I have more questions.

Thanks all!

 

[FSR402]

Really, I would love to get my hands on this stuff, any idea who makes it (I work at a brewery so I do have sources home brewers don't).

Also, while I brought up caustic, I do not advocate using it unless you know what you are doing. It is nasty stuff.

I don't remember who does, I want to say Loeffler but I'm not sure without doing some digging. For caustic to work it oxidizes and in a CO2 filled vessel it can't so this stuff is made to do it without O2. Don't ask me how. lol

 

[Toecutter]

If your using a proper manifold or false bottom in your kettle, that should minimize the amount of solids entering you plate chiller…..no ??

 

[signal2noise]

I also back-flush, but I use a cheap $12 submersible garden pump.

Cal P80 Mag-Drive Pump
(This one can be found for less on Ebay!)

Works great! I use hot oxyclean and pump it for about half an hour, then flush.

No need for a $100+ pump just for cleaning your plate chiller!

Thanks for the responses everyone! There are a lot of things to consider here and I learned a lot.

I actually thought about using a (cheap) submersible pump (in the short term) to circulate PBW for cleaning until I move up to a March pump.

Spoke with someone else tonight and he cleans his chiller by hooking it up to the sink and backflushes it for 5-10 minutes, then soaks the chiller in a bucket of PBW for anywhere up to a few days, and finally follows this with a rinse. To sanitize he puts it in a bucket of starsan and rocks it around,
pour it through a couple times, so the inside gets coated with sanitizer
and let sit a minute or two.

I guess the important thing is to come up with a system that works based on your equipment and that more than one approach may work.

Thanks again for the discussion.

 

[billtzk]

The green tint of the water is not a concern. It's simply the alkaline nature of the PBW reacting with the copper inside the chiller. The same thing happens on copper fittings. Try soaking a piece of copper tubing in PBW. What needs to be removed is the solids.

Thanks for that. I thought that might be the case about the green color too, but I wasn't sure.

 

[billtzk]

If your using a proper manifold or false bottom in your kettle, that should minimize the amount of solids entering you plate chiller…..no ??

No, I don't think so.. Not if you are using pellet hops. Not even the use of a hop spider and a manifold will eliminate it all. A manifold that is proper enough to stop all the pellet hop debris will get clogged and stop up your kettle.

 

[billtzk]

I don't remember who does, I want to say Loeffler but I'm not sure without doing some digging. For caustic to work it oxidizes and in a CO2 filled vessel it can't so this stuff is made to do it without O2. Don't ask me how. lol

What folks call "caustic" is just lye, right? NaOH, aka sodium hydroxide. Red Devil may not be available at the grocery store anymore, but there are numerous other sources for it. Suppliers of chemicals for photography, soap making, and biodiesel sell it. I buy food-grade lye from Essential Depot. Technical grade is cheaper, and fine for cleaning. You can also make your own if you have a good supply of hardwood ash and rainwater.

 

[emjay]

In my CFC, I use hot oxyclean, and I cycle the pump on and off. The off time results in a greater contact time, and the on time results in a "pressurized" flow. Both clean + remove junk.

M_C

I just close the valve a bit on the exit. In addition to allowing more contact time, it's the same principle as doing this with the pump, really - by having less restriction on the inlet, and more on the outlet, you allow the cleaner to "pile up" (for lack of a betterment term atm at the very end of the chiller, which ensures that the interior gets *completely* filled with cleaner. If the restriction is the same on both ends, there's a greater chance that you'll only fill it partially, which means that the cleaner may not contact 100% of the surfaces.

 

[LordUlrich]

What folks call "caustic" is just lye, right? NaOH, aka sodium hydroxide. Red Devil may not be available at the grocery store anymore, but there are numerous other sources for it. Suppliers of chemicals for photography, soap making, and biodiesel sell it. I buy food-grade lye from Essential Depot. Technical grade is cheaper, and fine for cleaning. You can also make your own if you have a good supply of hardwood ash and rainwater.

Caustic is either NaOH (caustic soda) or KOH (caustic potash). Regular caustic is not hard to find but it can't be used in a co2 environment generally. CO2 is an acid (or more correctly forms carbonic acid when mixed with water) acids and bases (caustic is a strong base) can't be mixed or they will react to make water and a salt (I think it is a salt, In this case sodium or potassium carbonate)