Planning my first non-kit brew - so many questions

[slobot1]

So I want to brew new beer using recipes I find here and elsewhere. The first one I want to try is Double Raspberry Shake. I’m not able to fully understand it all.

1. I’m accustomed to having malt extract, but there is none in the bill.
2. When does the lactose get introduced to the boil and for how long before flame off?
3. The last three hops go in during the final days in the fermenter?
4. What about oxidation (like for NEIPA) when putting in / removing the hops?
5. And for the purée and vanilla, does that go in for the last three days in the fermenter? Oxidation concerns?

I’m using a 5-gallon bucket kit, but will make a half-batch of 2.5 gallons. I appreciate any advice you have to offer. Thanks

 

[doug293cz]

1. This is what is known as an "all grain" recipe. There is no malt extract involved. Most of the fermentable sugar will come from converting the grain's starch into sugar during the mashing process (and some will come from the puree.) Are you familiar with how to mash?
2. Timing of the lactose addition is not critical. Five minutes before the end of boil will work nicely.
3. The "dry hop" timings are days after start of fermentation, so the cryo hops go in after 1 day, the first charge of Eureka goes in after 3 days, and the second charge of Eureka goes in after 6 days.
4. If you are fermenting in a bucket, you really can't get good control over oxidation. The best you can do is minimize the time that you have the lid off of the bucket, and try not to disturb the gas in the headspace of the bucket when opening/closing.
5. The puree and vanilla go in after 3 days of fermentation. Fermentation is over when the SG no longer changes when samples are taken 2 - 3 days apart.

Some unsolicited advice: This is a fairly complicated recipe, and is not really a good choice for your first all grain brew. Something simpler, without dry hop or fermenter adjunct additions would be a better way to start. You are better off learning the basics of the all grain process on simple recipes, and then adding more complexity as you get comfortable with the processes.

Also, you are right to be worried about oxidation. Hop forward beers, especially those with lots of dry hops, are extremely sensitive to oxygen exposure, and will lose their flavor and aroma quickly (a matter of days, not weeks) if cold side oxygen exposure is not sufficiently avoided. You should learn about O2 exposure avoidance, and insure your equipment is up to the task, before you attempt an NEIPA type brew - if you want to avoid being disappointed with the results.

Brew on

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

So I want to brew new beer using recipes I find here and elsewhere. The first one I want to try is Double Raspberry Shake. I’m not able to fully understand it all.

1. I’m accustomed to having malt extract, but there is none in the bill.
2. When does the lactose get introduced to the boil and for how long before flame off?
3. The last three hops go in during the final days in the fermenter?
4. What about oxidation (like for NEIPA) when putting in / removing the hops?
5. And for the purée and vanilla, does that go in for the last three days in the fermenter? Oxidation concerns?

I’m using a 5-gallon bucket kit, but will make a half-batch of 2.5 gallons. I appreciate any advice you have to offer. Thanks

I would love to answer all of your questions but you're going to get a flood of answers.

How many beers have you brewed already?

There's some on line calculators to help you determine extract to grain but the brewing process is a little different. Forgive me if you already know this!

If grain brewing is new to you I would try a recipe a little more simpler so you can get a better feel for what to do and the extra equipment needed.

Lactose can be added just about anytime but most add it close to the end of the boil. Lactose adds body and sweetness to beer as it does not fully ferment out.

The hops you add late are for flavor. Normally hops added during the boil time is for bitterness as well as flavor and aroma.

Oxidation is always a concern and every time you open your fermenter you risk air (oxygen) getting in but during fermentation there's a layer of heavy CO2 on top of your beer

 

[Zadkiel]

So I want to brew new beer using recipes I find here and elsewhere. The first one I want to try is Double Raspberry Shake. I’m not able to fully understand it all.

I'm in the exact same place as you, about to start my first grain brew after learning with extract, but I've done a lot of studying so I think I can answer

1. I’m accustomed to having malt extract, but there is none in the bill.

Correct, that's normal. Extract brewing needs an extra amount of fermentables on top of the main extract. Some grain recipes will call for some extra fermentables like DME but that's unusual, generally the grain in the recipe will provide it all.

1. When does the lactose get introduced to the boil and for how long before flame off?

Doesn't really matter. Lactose is not fermentable, it's role in this recipe is to add some body and sweetness to the final beer as the yeast can't process it. It needs to go into the boil so it's sanitized, that's all. A few minutes before the end is fine.

1. The last three hops go in during the final days in the fermenter?

This is the one I'm not too sure about. Length of fermentation varies so much for so many reasons that it's not reasonable for a recipe to list a hop addition as 6 days before the end, so my assumption would be the opposite, that the day counts are days after fermentation start. But someone correct me.

1. What about oxidation (like for NEIPA) when putting in / removing the hops?

Yep that's gonna be a problem, it's a style particularly affected by oxidation, if you're going to try it using a bucket then you'll need to minimize exposure as best you can.

1. And for the purée and vanilla, does that go in for the last three days in the fermenter? Oxidation concerns?

Well it goes in at the same time as one of the hop additions.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Just to add: I use fruit in many of my beers. Although a secondary fermenter is not normally used, this is a time when it could be. Let your beer ferment till it starts to slow down. Transfer it to another sanitized bucket where your fruit is. Then add your fermentation lick, let it sit for another week or more.

I keg all of my beer so I add fruit additions to the keg. The fruit is either bagged or placed into a sanitized stainless steel mesh cylinder. I can later transfer the beer or serve from the same keg.

 

[MaxStout]

So I want to brew new beer using recipes I find here and elsewhere. The first one I want to try is Double Raspberry Shake. I’m not able to fully understand it all.

1. I’m accustomed to having malt extract, but there is none in the bill.
2. When does the lactose get introduced to the boil and for how long before flame off?
3. The last three hops go in during the final days in the fermenter?
4. What about oxidation (like for NEIPA) when putting in / removing the hops?
5. And for the purée and vanilla, does that go in for the last three days in the fermenter? Oxidation concerns?

I’m using a 5-gallon bucket kit, but will make a half-batch of 2.5 gallons. I appreciate any advice you have to offer. Thanks

Welcome to HBT!

I'm going to concur with @doug293cz and suggest something less complicated for your first all-grain brew. That NEIPA has a lot of moving parts. There are lots of styles that are more forgiving: Hefeweizen, stouts, porters, cream/blonde ales, etc.

A SMASH (single malt and single hop) brew is an excellent way to get your feet wet in AG. It's also a good way to get acquainted with the flavor profiles of particular malts and hops.

If you do go ahead with the NEIPA, be sure to turn the heat off the kettle before adding the lactose, to prevent scorching. Pour it in slowly and stir, stir, stir.

During fermentation, try to limit opening the bucket. If you can, add the dry hops, puree and vanilla at one time. Open the lid as little as possible, pour it in, close up right away.

You will still have some O2 ingress, and your beer will have a limited shelf life. If you are bottling, as soon as it's carbonated (2-3 weeks) put it all in the fridge.

 

[slobot1]

These are all excellent answers to my questions! Thank y'all so much. I like the challenge of an IPA, but I don't want it to be a complete waste. To get around hops additions and opening the lid for oxidation, I've come to the conclusion that bagged hops attached to the inside of the lid with magnets (pull off the magnet on top of the lid to drop the bag in) would suffice. However, I don't think I get get several pounds of fruit to stay suspended for days like that.

Maybe a secondary fermenter bucket for the fruit could be used without worry of oxygen intrusion. If I were to simply fill the bucket with CO2, gravity fill the bucket from the primary valve and displace the CO2 as the level rises, then all would be fine... right? How to do that? I know dry ice has been discussed, but it's not food grade and yada yada yada. BUT if the dry ice were in a bowl suspended above the bucket so that the CO2 could flow over the bowl and into the bucket (think spooky Halloween effect), thereby displacing the oxygen... I don't know...

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

These are all excellent answers to my questions! Thank y'all so much. I like the challenge of an IPA, but I don't want it to be a complete waste. To get around hops additions and opening the lid for oxidation, I've come to the conclusion that bagged hops attached to the inside of the lid with magnets (pull off the magnet on top of the lid to drop the bag in) would suffice. However, I don't think I get get several pounds of fruit to stay suspended for days like that.

Maybe a secondary fermenter bucket for the fruit could be used without worry of oxygen intrusion. If I were to simply fill the bucket with CO2, gravity fill the bucket from the primary valve and displace the CO2 as the level rises, then all would be fine... right? How to do that? I know dry ice has been discussed, but it's not food grade and yada yada yada. BUT if the dry ice were in a bowl suspended above the bucket so that the CO2 could flow over the bowl and into the bucket (think spooky Halloween effect), thereby displacing the oxygen... I don't know...

I wouldn't go through all that work using a secondary. I understand your idea and concerns. Transferring beer before it's completely fermented to the secondary with the fruit means it'll start fermenting again with the sugar in the fruit. Any oxygen will be pushed out along with the CO2 being produced just like primary fermentation.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think now is a good time to step back and determine if you have both the equipment, capacity, and process of all grain brewing under control before you think about doing it. 15+ pounds of grain is nothing like the pound or so of steeping grains you may have dunked in the kettle before. Your boil kettle needs to be at least 8 gallons, if not larger, if you're going to use a large mesh bag. You'll have to perform a "dunk sparge" in a bucket then combine all the wort. You have to boil about 6.5 gallons down to about 5.25 gallons and then you have to cool all that volume down from boiling to pitching temps (without adding any cold water).

Do yourself a favor and try it on a cheap blonde ale rather than a recipe that is going to cost you $60 minimum.

In other words, figuring out how to low oxygen dry hop in a bucket is certainly putting the cart before the horse.

Alternatively, just convert this to an extract recipe to take one major process change out of the picture.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Some unsolicited advice: This is a fairly complicated recipe, and is not really a good choice for your first all grain brew.

Brew on

I'd like to amplify this point. I've been all grain brewing for 30+ years and I have assembled a fairly sophisticated brewery during that time and I think that is a very complicated and technically challenging recipe. If I were to attempt to brew that, I'd have to sit down, give it a think, and do some planning.

Jumping into the deep end to learn how to swim isn't the best way forward for most people. In your case, you're proposing to learn to swim by going straight into technical deep water scuba diving with special gases and compression/decompression cycles. Yeah, I'm being a bit absurd, but do you see my point? I just don't want you to experience a big, expensive, and demoralizing failure. There'll be a time to brew this recipe, it's just not now. Don't be discouraged, either. With the right equipment and a bit of practice, you can be brewing something technical like this by next Spring.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Considering all the great advice you can see how a good recipe can become complicated. Getting into all grain brewing is a big step from all extract but one that most of us have made.

As noted all grain requires some different equipment as well as procedures but you already have some or most of what you need.

No one here is trying to talk you out of making the leap but more to try a simpler recipe for your first. I brewed a lot of extract wheat recipes so my first all grain recipe was a wheat beer. I already knew the hop schedule, the yeast to use, just needed to figure out the grain and water part.

That was 25 years ago. Brewing evolves over time, I started out with buckets, five gallon batches and now a 15 gallon system with four vessels.

 

[worlddivides]

I 100% agree with OakIslandBrewery, Bramling Cross, Bobby M, and others who are saying this is likely too complicated of a recipe for your first all grain. It's also a rather expensive one ingredients-wise and I can see lots of areas for error. Not just in oxidation. But this is a 9.1% ABV milkshake IPA. I would personally never try something that high in alcohol as my first all-grain. Like others, I'd suggest a SMaSH (single malt, single hop) beer of a more typical ABV (4% to 6% or so). In my case, like probably the vast majority of people on this site, the style of beer I brewed the most was IPAs, so my first all-grain was a session IPA.

Some brewers start homebrewing with all-grain, but most start with extract. I also started with extract, and in my case, I did a middle step of "partial mash" before going to full all-grain. Going to full all-grain from extract is perfectly fine, but I'd recommend not jumping into it having to come up with dropping hop bags with magnets or figuring out how to introduce fruit to the beer when you've never mashed before. I can just imagine trying something complicated and things not going according to plan and wanting to quit. I mean, my first extract beer went very poorly due to me at the time having no way to control the fermentation temperature and the area suddenly being hit by a heatwave. Luckily for me, it was a cheap blond ale.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I like the challenge of an IPA, but I don't want it to be a complete waste.

Build a detailed process outline; make an equipment list; then a brew day checklist.

Here's a starting point: The book Speed Brewing (2015) has two long chapters on how to keg that first batch of all-grain beer. It assumes that one is new to brewing beer. It will need some updates to include the latest information around oxygen and certain additives.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Another possible option for information for that detailed process outline - Palmer's new (2025) book "How To Brew Beer in Your Kitchen". The summary indicates it focuses on 2.5 gal all grain batches. It's not available from the major USA based sellers, but apparently is available from certain USA-based re-sellers (at prices I'm not willing to pay)

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Another possible option for information for that detailed process outline - Palmer's new (2025) book "How To Brew Beer in Your Kitchen". The summary indicates it focuses on 2.5 gal all grain batches. It's not available from the major USA based sellers, but apparently is available from certain USA-based re-sellers (at prices I'm not willing to pay)

Great points to share!

Acquiring a few brewing books is a great investment for all levels of brewers. YouTube is fine but I prefer a book.

Along your previous post, a notebook for brew day notes us especially helpful too. After years if brewing I still keep notes on each brew.

 

[Bramling Cross]

A more affordable option might be Mike Karnowski's Homebrew: Beyond the Basics. It's showing its age a bit, but it does a great job at breaking down the various sub-disciplines of brewing (recipe design, mashing methods, hopping methods, types of fermentations) into discreet techniques, then providing clear instructions while showing the technique being used in a recipe. I recommend it frequently and it seems to get good feedback because its very approachable, clearly written, and it gets right to the point.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

A more affordable option might be Mike Karnowski's Homebrew: Beyond the Basics. It's showing its age a bit, but it does a great job at breaking down the various sub-disciplines of brewing (recipe design, mashing methods, hopping methods, types of fermentations) into discreet techniques, then providing clear instructions while showing the technique being used in a recipe. I recommend it frequently and it seems to get good feedback because its very approachable, clearly written, and it gets right to the point.

That looks like a great book for anyone's brewing library!

To the OP: don't shy away from older references since the basics on brewing haven't changed much. Each one of may have a different technique but we all employ the same basic principles of brewing whether extract, partial mash, BIAB and all grain.