Planning my first BIAB batch. Adjuncts questions.

[GrowleyMonster]

I am wondering whether it is better to go all malt, or malt with adjuncts. I have enjoyed my all LME low hops batches so far. I am not looking for fancy or exotic flavors, just intoxicating liquid bread that tastes good. But I am interested in saving a buck where it is practical. For that reason alone, I am considering BIAB with adjunct grains. Mostly I am looking for the answer to two questions.

1. Can realize significant savings by adding unmalted grains to the mash bill?

2. How much unmalted grain can I expect a pound of malted barley to convert? I realize this is different for different grains, but as examples: oats, barley, corn, wheat. I won't be doing rice, I don't think. Or rye or millet or anything exotic.

I am looking to put together an inexpensive mash bill for a 5 gallon batch at an OG of around 1.06 to 1.063, somewhere around there. And I will be using BIAB, fine grind, no sparging, 100% boil in a 100 quart aluminum crawfish pot on an outdoor propane burner with an ounce of Cascade for 45 minute boil time. I have ordered a prefab immersion chiller, 50' 3/8" stainless, but if it doesn't arrive in time I will be using ice bags or frozen PET bottles for chilling as the pot is too big for the outdoor deep sink. Or I may pre-chill down to about 150 in a washtub. Just to put this into perspective. Mostly I am hoping to get tips for putting my mash bill together cheaply. My mill is due to arrive today and I have a nice trub in the primary that I hope to use for fermenting the BIAB batch on Sunday, when I move the batch in primary to a secondary. So Sunday will be the big brew day and Friday I plan to visit the LHBS for my fermentables. Buying over the counter instead of online makes for one last chance for somebody to tell me if I am doing something that won't work, I figure. Plus, with shipping, savings from buying online probably isn't all that significant, I am guessing, since I am only buying enough for one batch initially.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Savings is recognized once your buying your malt by the sack, then adjuncts aren’t that much cheaper for 5 gallon batch.

Adjuncts are fun to experiment with, rice and wheat, and even well cooked pasta can be mashed w malted barley.

 

[dwhite60]

... and potatoes too!

I would expect two pounds of two row for each pound of adjunct. Long, low temperature
mash will help get maximum conversion.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[GrowleyMonster]

... and potatoes too!

I would expect two pounds of two row for each pound of adjunct. Long, low temperature
mash will help get maximum conversion.

All the Best,
D. White

Exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks. So I could conceivably have 10 lb two row barley malt and 5 lb other grains or starchy stuff. And any sugary stuff would just be a gimme. Cool. But the adjuncts would I suppose only save a very small amount of money, and serve mostly just to modify the body and taste, and color, right? Maybe for my first batch I will just pick a decent malt that is reasonably cheap and go SMaSH. Cheap is good. Simple is good, too.

 

[IslandLizard]

Most modern (well-modified) 2-row has a diastatic power (DP) above 90 °Lintner, 120-140 °Lintner not being uncommon (e.g., Rahr Malting). Pilsner malts and 6-row tend to be even higher, in the 160-220 °Lintner range.

For complete conversion your total grist mix needs to have an minimal (average) DP of 35 °Lintner, but it will be slow at that lowest level. Even if you use 2-row:adjunct at 1:1, equal amounts of each, your minimal DP would still be 45 °Lintner (90/2) and should convert 100% without trouble. In those low DP cases, keep the mash temps lowish, don't go above 152-154F. Give it some extra time and do some Iodine tests to check conversion progress and make sure it finished. Measuring gravity is also an indication of conversion.

Anything from the brew store is relatively expensive. Even their flaked oats are premium priced. Instead use your supermarket brand oats right next to Quaker's, should be no more than $1 a pound. Or buy in bulk from a wholesaler, like bakery supply.

You can mix malted barley or malted wheat with feed barley (~$9 a sack), or feed oats. Just make sure they aren't fortified with nutrients, they usually don't.
If you want to use corn, use either flaked (brewstore, expensive) or do a cereal mash with corn grits, groats, or other coarsely milled/broken adjuncts.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Most modern (well-modified) 2-row has a diastatic power (DP) above 90 °Lintner, 120-140 °Lintner not being uncommon (e.g., Rahr Malting). Pilsner malts and 6-row tend to be even higher, in the 160-220 °Lintner range.

For complete conversion your total grist mix needs to have an minimal (average) DP of 35 °Lintner, but it will be slow at that lowest level. Even if you use 2-row:adjunct at 1:1, equal amounts of each, your minimal DP would still be 45 °Lintner (90/2) and should convert 100% without trouble. In those low DP cases, keep the mash temps lowish, don't go above 152-154F. Give it some extra time and do some Iodine tests to check conversion progress and make sure it finished. Measuring gravity is also an indication of conversion.

Anything from the brew store is relatively expensive. Even their flaked oats are premium priced. Instead use your supermarket brand oats right next to Quaker's, should be no more than $1 a pound. Or buy in bulk from a wholesaler, like bakery supply.

You can mix malted barley or malted wheat with feed barley (~$9 a sack), or feed oats. Just make sure they aren't fortified with nutrients, they usually don't.
If you want to use corn, use either flaked (brewstore, expensive) or do a cereal mash with corn grits, groats, or other coarsely milled/broken adjuncts.

Wow... so with 6 row, I could even go like 3:1?

I already tried to source feed barley locally. Feed stores here don't have it. Can order it, but cost is crazy. I will need to go up north somewhere to get it at actual ag prices. Grits and oats I can get from Sams. MoreBeer has Viking Pale Ale malt $7.99 fir 10 lb bags, free shipping over $56. So about $12 for a reasonably big beer. And about 30 cents per pint at over 6% ABV isn't bad, especially if the beer is pretty good. At that price, I don't need adjuncts to save money.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Okay, I am fixing to pull the trigger on some Viking Pale Ale Malt from MoreBeer.
https://www.morebeer.com/view_product/44043
At 80 cents a pound in 10 lb bags with free shipping over I think $56, the price is okay. Any opinions on this malt before I hit the checkout?
Also getting 5 lbs of a Viking Caramel,
https://www.morebeer.com/view_product/44274
just to try a little darker beer without resorting to a pound of chocolate malt I bought for steeping in LME beer. And a 24 x 24 bag. That puts me over the free shipping threshhold. I can get the pale ale malt cheaper by the 55lb bag but they won't ship it free. $39 for the sack, $53 for shipping it LOL! So I go with the 10 lb bags.

I am going to either get it or not get it by the end of the day, depending on whether the members here think this is a good base malt or not.

 

[IslandLizard]

Wow... so with 6 row, I could even go like 3:1?

I already tried to source feed barley locally. Feed stores here don't have it. Can order it, but cost is crazy. I will need to go up north somewhere to get it at actual ag prices. Grits and oats I can get from Sams. MoreBeer has Viking Pale Ale malt $7.99 fir 10 lb bags, free shipping over $56. So about $12 for a reasonably big beer. And about 30 cents per pint at over 6% ABV isn't bad, especially if the beer is pretty good. At that price, I don't need adjuncts to save money.

Technically, yes. Flavorwise, up to you to decide.

Much depends on the (unmalted) adjuncts used, some give good flavor and body (wheat, rye, barley, etc.), others almost none (corn, rice). Commercial American Light Lagers (think Budweiser, Miller, Coors, etc.) rely on high adjunct percentages from corn and rice, as high as 60%! Their (lack of) flavor and body reflect that.

Feed barley has husks, they're not the problem. When using high %s of (unmalted) adjuncts, keep an eye on beta-glucan and husk content to keep your mash permeable/lauter-able. Have rice hulls on hand, and be prepared doing a beta-glucanase rest for some (rye!). Using up to 8 oz of rice hulls in a sticky 5 gallon batch is average, some need more as you'll see. But they're not free either. We split a few 50# sacks of rice hulls at our group buys over time, so we're set for a few years. Cheap insurance!

Also check the starch gelatinization temps of all adjuncts you use, if they're not already pre-gelatinized. Most flaked and torrified grain products are pregelatinized, due to the processes they were subjected to. If they're not pre-gelatinized, such as grits, groats (steel cut oats), etc., they need to be either boiled for a while (up to 30-60 minutes in some cases) or cereal mashed with a diastatic malt, to break up the inner cell structures (glucans) so the starch becomes accessible.

Re: MoreBeer
That's the way most people buy grain from them, buying enough 10# bags to qualify for free shipping.
Shipping generally kills all but very few deals on whole sacks from the (larger) retailers unless you're close enough to pick them up. That's how family visits to remote areas can suddenly become way more lucrative! "Uh, honey, you don't mind if stop somewhere on the way?"

Both my LHBS sell whole sacks, at much better prices than by the pound from their bins. Say $50-70 a bag depending on kind.
We like our group grain buys mostly for price, although our pricing used to be much, much better until around 6 years ago). But now we can get malts that aren't commonly available or for reasonable prices. They're ordered through a homebrew shop annex to a brewery. Win-win-win.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Okay well, it is going to be all malt for the first couple of all grain batches, then. So, how does everyone like the Viking Pale Ale Malt? It is only 80 cents/lb, but if it sucks then I don't care how cheap it is.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

I ordered the Viking Pale Ale Malt. Meanwhile I have my final batch of all LME SMaSH ale to move to secondary today, and I want to pour new wort right on top of the leavings. Anticipating this, I went to my LHBS and bought 10lb of Rahr 2 row and a couple pounds of other stuff. 12 or 13 lbs total, so I wouldn't have to wait for the stuff I ordered from MoreBeer. I also got a kettle that I could use on the gas stove in the kitchen, 14 gallons capacity. Today will be a brew day, of course. I am still going with BIAB no sparge. Boil time will be 45 minutes. What I want to do is hit the water volume just right, or as close to it as possible. Now much water should I start with? Assuming 5 gallon batch, BIAB, no sparge, 12 lbs malt. I am guessing about 6-1/2 gallons or a bit less. Hoping someone with some experience in this can chime in before I start mashing.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you haven't started mashing yet, look for a BIAB calculator.

Or:
In fermenter: 5.5 gallons
Grain absorption: 12# grain * 0.12 gallon/# = 1.4 gallon
Boil off: 1 gallon (?)
Wort left in kettle with trub: .5 gallon (?)

5.5 + 1.4 + 1 + .5 = 8.4 gallons of total water needed.
Perhaps less due to less boil off and less trub loss?

 

[GrowleyMonster]

If you haven't started mashing yet, look for a BIAB calculator.

Or:
In fermenter: 5.5 gallons
Grain absorption: 12# grain * 0.12 gallon/# = 1.4 gallon
Boil off: 1 gallon (?)
Wort left in kettle with trub: .5 gallon (?)

5.5 + 1.4 + 1 + .5 = 8.4 gallons of total water needed.
Perhaps less due to less boil off and less trub loss?

Thanks! I just set the timer on my mash. I went 7 gallons of water but I can just sparge another gallon after I pull the bag, and next batch I will adjust the water accordingly. Total volume in the kettle now looks like a hair over 8 gallons. I heated the water to 165 and right now with the grain in there it is at about 153 degrees. Taking a beer break, then I will get the previous batch out of the primary and have it ready for the currently mashing batch.

 

[Miraculix]

I think the cheapest possible adjunct easily to get, must be wheat flour. I went as low as 50/50 wheat flour/pale malt and it converted well within a normal one hour mash. But I biab, so no problems lautering.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

I think the cheapest possible adjunct easily to get, must be wheat flour. I went as low as 50/50 wheat flour/pale malt and it converted well within a normal one hour mash. But I biab, so traditional no problems lautering.

Thanks. I will try adding 3 or 4 pounds next time and see how it comes out. The viking malt is 80 cents a pound. Flour is about 35 cents a pound. If I went half flour I could make a 5 gallon batch of medium gravity ale for under 7 bucks with no great amount of hassle. Nice. 17 cents a pint? I will be saving a lot of money, if you don't count brew kettles, kegs, fermenters, regulators, tanks, hoses, fittings, test equipment, new fridge, faucets, and other stuff.

Was keeping the flour from forming big lumps difficult?

I ended up with almost 6 gallons. So I should be good for a little over 5 gallons into the BMB. Next time I will go about 7-1/2 gallons for 12 lbs grain. Fixing to hop it and boil it now.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks. I will try adding 3 or 4 pounds next time and see how it comes out. The viking malt is 80 cents a pound. Flour is about 35 cents a pound. If I went half flour I could make a 5 gallon batch of medium gravity ale for under 7 bucks with no great amount of hassle. Nice. 17 cents a pint? I will be saving a lot of money, if you don't count brew kettles, kegs, fermenters, regulators, tanks, hoses, fittings, test equipment, new fridge, faucets, and other stuff.

Was keeping the flour from forming big lumps difficult?

I ended up with almost 6 gallons. So I should be good for a little over 5 gallons into the BMB. Next time I will go about 7-1/2 gallons for 12 lbs grain. Fixing to hop it and boil it now.

I am doing full volume mashes and biab. I mixed the flour with the malt thoroughly before I threw it into the hot water. I stirred a bit longer than usual and stirred again after ten minutes but then it was all good.

If budget is king, buy a kveik yeast like voss. You can harvest this yeast forever and home dry it on baking paper. Makes also great beer. Brings in flavour at 37c fermentation temp and is really clean at normal room temperature.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Okay, boil is done. Almost 5-1/2 gallons left. Gravity is 1.055 at 138f so I make it about 1.067 corrected. I cheated a little. Without working it out on paper, I took a reading and was horrified to see after a half hour of boiling that the SG was only about 1.04, and my pulled out of my ass estimate had the corrected OG too low, and so I added a pound of DME I had laying around from a kit I never brewed. I guess I didn't really need it. Anyway so I am probably looking at around 7.25 ABV. Fixing to hook up the chiller coil and bring it down to about 72 or 74 degrees, and pour it over the fresh trub in the just now vacated primary fermenter. This is gonna be goooooooooooood..... no hubble bubble airlock. Going to go with a blowout tube in a bucket of water cause this stuff should take off like a rocket.

Funny thing I have noticed... often after transferring to the secondary, I notice a half inch or so layer of clearer wort floating on top. What am I looking at? Should I siphon it off?

 

[GrowleyMonster]

I am doing full volume mashes and biab. I mixed the flour with the malt thoroughly before I threw it into the hot water. I stirred a bit longer than usual and stirred again after ten minutes but then it was all good.

If budget is king, buy a kveik yeast like voss. You can harvest this yeast forever and home dry it on baking paper. Makes also great beer. Brings in flavour at 37c fermentation temp and is really clean at normal room temperature.

Nice. I am definitely gonna try adding some flour, then.

Been using US-05 and recycling with good results but I was thinking about trying Hothead in the summer. GF gets irritable when the house is too cold in the summer. Coming in from 98 degree heat and 90% humidity, 70 degrees feels kinda frosty and GF acts that way too, until I let the temp go back up around 74f. I have been trying to keep my US-05 batches down around 69 or 70 degrees internal temp, 72 max, especially the first several days. The Hothead doesn't care if it is at 90f, it will keep chugging along. I guess the Voss would work pretty good at 74 ambient, too. Probably that would give me about 76f in the fermenter. Near the upper recommended limit for US-05 I think but a kveik should thrive in that environment, right?

 

[Miraculix]

Nice. I am definitely gonna try adding some flour, then.

Been using US-05 and recycling with good results but I was thinking about trying Hothead in the summer. GF gets irritable when the house is too cold in the summer. Coming in from 98 degree heat and 90% humidity, 70 degrees feels kinda frosty and GF acts that way too, until I let the temp go back up around 74f. I have been trying to keep my US-05 batches down around 69 or 70 degrees internal temp, 72 max, especially the first several days. The Hothead doesn't care if it is at 90f, it will keep chugging along. I guess the Voss would work pretty good at 74 ambient, too. Probably that would give me about 76f in the fermenter. Near the upper recommended limit for US-05 I think but a kveik should thrive in that environment, right?

With Voss I had good results with chilling the wort to 37C, pitching a tiny amount of yeast (one teaspoon slurry per 5 gallons), wrapping the fermenter into a blanket/sleeping bag and keeping it that way. after two or three days, everything is done.

You can easily add 5-10 degrees to the ambient temperature to get the actual fermentation temperature. Yeast is a potent heater when confronted with stuff to metabolise, so it will be most likely out of the recommended US05 range.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Note to myself. Before opening valves that need to be open, make sure and close the ones that need to be closed. I set up the Big Mouth Bubbler under the brew kettle, stuck a hose on the kettle spigot, opened her up and took the wort chiller to the shower for a rinse. When I came back there was about a gallon and a half of wort on deck. Who would have thought that wort, so sticky on the hands, was so slippery underfoot? So I fall down, go boom. Splash and slosh wort everywhere. Batting 1000, here, with making messes. So far I have yet to brew a batch of ale and not make at least one major cleanup on aisle 6 episode. Ended up with about 4-1/3 gallons in the Bigmouth Bubbler. The good news is it is already starting to get busy.

Next batch will be simpler and of course cheaper. To recap, this one was:
7 gallons water
10lb Rahr 2 row
1lb Briess Crystal 60L
3/4lb Weyermann Munich II 10L
1/4lb Crisp Chocolate Malt, 400L
1lb Pilsner DME
1oz Cascade, 45 minutes
US-05 trub
$19.31 total grains, don't know what the DME should cost. Let's call it $21 for fermentables.

I think I would have got a little better conversion and extraction with a finer grind. Still an OG of 1.068 is okayish. With my usual 2 stage ferment, I should be able to get FG down to 1.012 or better, no problem, for an ABV of 7.35 or so. Smells heavenly. I should know because the spill left the whole house smelling like malt. The neighbors will be over for cookies, soon, I expect.

Next batch will be:
13-1/2lb Viking Pale Ale malt
half pound Viking Caramel 150L
1oz Cascade 45 minute
7-1/2 gallons water
$12.02 for fermentables. 30c/pint

Meanwhile this first BIAB batch I have high hopes for. Should be delicious.