planning multi-purpose keezer

[twd000]

I am scouting CL for a 7 CU FT chest freezer to base my system on. I would like it to handle kegs at serving temperature (45*F?) plus cellaring / bottle-conditioning bottles (50*F?) and fermentation of both ales and lagers (30-70 depending on style and stage). Has anyone come up with an approach for this?

I'm thinking of putting two corny kegs in the keezer then using the rest of the open space for bottle conditioning. The fermentation chamber would be a 10-gallon round cooler set outside the keezer, with the carboy inside a water bath. I would put a ~2 gallon water/glycol reservoir inside the keezer attached the a pump, separate controller and copper cooling loop around the carboy in the water bath. I would set the pump/controller to circulate as necessary to keep the fermentation in the ale range. If lagering or cold crashing, I would just clear out a keg in the freezer and put the carboy directly inside.

What do you think of this idea?

 

[bertmurphy]

Do you want to maintain three different temperature ranges with the freezer?

I have been trying to do something similar to this. All my thoughts have been focused around using a regular fridge. My idea is an elaboration of a son of fermentation chiller, basically using the freezer part of the fridge for the cold air source, and the refrigerator part as the corney keg store. In a nutshell:

- Kitchen fridge
- Put corneys in the refrigerator part
- Blow cold air from the freezer with a cheap computer fan to small "pods" (fermentation chambers) as needed
- Pods would be foam insulated boxes with a thermostat inside that controls the fan that blows the cold air from the freezer

The one thing I like about this approach is that it is somewhat scalable in that you can add "pods" as needed and the pods can all be at different temperatures.

Using a freezer to maintain different fermentation temperatures would require a brew belt on the carboys and a temp controller to control each of them. Jamil has vouched for this method, although I've never talked to anybody that has done it. It seems expensive as well.

Let's collaborate on this. I really want to get something like you're describing built soon.

 

[twd000]

Do you want to maintain three different temperature ranges with the freezer?

I have been trying to do something similar to this. All my thoughts have been focused around using a regular fridge. My idea is an elaboration of a son of fermentation chiller, basically using the freezer part of the fridge for the cold air source, and the refrigerator part as the corney keg store. In a nutshell:

- Kitchen fridge
- Put corneys in the refrigerator part
- Blow cold air from the freezer with a cheap computer fan to small "pods" (fermentation chambers) as needed
- Pods would be foam insulated boxes with a thermostat inside that controls the fan that blows the cold air from the freezer

The one thing I like about this approach is that it is somewhat scalable in that you can add "pods" as needed and the pods can all be at different temperatures.

Using a freezer to maintain different fermentation temperatures would require a brew belt on the carboys and a temp controller to control each of them. Jamil has vouched for this method, although I've never talked to anybody that has done it. It seems expensive as well.

Let's collaborate on this. I really want to get something like you're describing built soon.

hey Bert - I like your idea of the pods but it seems like your fermentation temperatures would be too low for most ales. Assuming the fridge serving temperature is maintained somewhere around 40-50*F, your pods would never go above that, and in fact would go lower when you circulate in freezer air. I try to ferment my ales around 60-65F.

I agree with trying to reduce the # of temp controllers so any suggestions would be appreciated. I think I could use a simple cheap thermostat to turn on my glycol circulating pump rather than a fancy Johnson controller. The brew belt would be optional instead of using a water bath and copper coil

 

[bertmurphy]

Assuming the fridge serving temperature is maintained somewhere around 40-50*F, your pods would never go above that, and in fact would go lower when you circulate in freezer air.l

It should be noted that the "pods" would be external to the refrigerator all together. The air would only enter the fermentation chamber if it is blown in from the freezer. Think of it like a central A/C. The cold air only enters the room when the A/C is blowing it in, then turns off when the thermostat says so.

I think I could use a simple cheap thermostat to turn on my glycol circulating pump rather than a fancy Johnson controller. The brew belt would be optional instead of using a water bath and copper coil

The thermostat is going to measure the ambient air temperature inside the freezer though, which is not what you want. You need a temperature control mechanism with an insulated probe attached to your fermentation vessels.

 

[twd000]

The air would only enter the fermentation chamber if it is blown in from the freezer. Think of it like a central A/C. The cold air only enters the room when the A/C is blowing it in.

maybe I misunderstood - your pods are external to the fridge/freezer, just sitting on the floor in your room? In that case you will plumb some sort of air duct to pipe freezer air into your pods? Keep in mind liquid is a much more efficient medium for heat transfer than air

The thermostat is going to measure the ambient air temperature inside the freezer though, which is not what you want. You need a temperature control mechanism with an insulated probe attached to your fermentation vessels.

yes, the t-stat would need to be either in the ferm water bath or right on the carboy to get the right reading

 

[broadbill]

How about something like this?

http://www.wortomatic.com/articles/The-Mother-of-All-Fermentation-Chillers

 

[bertmurphy]

maybe I misunderstood - your pods are external to the fridge/freezer, just sitting on the floor in your room? In that case you will plumb some sort of air duct to pipe freezer air into your pods?

The whole setup would be in my basement, but yes, that is correct. Nothing fancy as far as the air ducts go, just maybe some flexible plastic tubing.

Keep in mind liquid is a much more efficient medium for heat transfer than air

I've been thinking about this and weighing out the pros and cons of water and air. I know that water is more efficient for heat transfer but I decided against it because of the complexity and general messiness of it. No pumps to deal with, and I would worry much less about air leaks than water leaks. Also, I don't want to shell out the money for copper.

maybe I misunderstood - your pods are external to the fridge/freezer, just sitting on the floor in your room? In that case you will plumb some sort of air duct to pipe freezer air into your pods?

The whole setup would be in my basement, but yes, that is correct. Nothing fancy as far as the air ducts go, just maybe some flexible plastic tubing going from the freezer to the pods.

yes, the t-stat would need to be either in the ferm water bath or right on the carboy to get the right reading

We must be thinking of different thermostats. The one I have in my son of fermentation chiller (exactly this) has live wiring going through it and absolutely cannot be submerged. There is a coil inside that compresses/expands based on the ambient air temp and controls a relay. Are there better, cheaper ones with probes?

 

[bertmurphy]

How about something like this?

http://www.wortomatic.com/articles/The-Mother-of-All-Fermentation-Chillers

Wow, that looks pretty slick. I dunno if I have the carpentry skills and equipment to make something like that though.

 

[twd000]

The whole setup would be in my basement, but yes, that is correct. Nothing fancy as far as the air ducts go, just maybe some flexible plastic tubing.

I've been thinking about this and weighing out the pros and cons of water and air. I know that water is more efficient for heat transfer but I decided against it because of the complexity and general messiness of it. No pumps to deal with, and I would worry much less about air leaks than water leaks. Also, I don't want to shell out the money for copper.

The whole setup would be in my basement, but yes, that is correct. Nothing fancy as far as the air ducts go, just maybe some flexible plastic tubing going from the freezer to the pods.

We must be thinking of different thermostats. The one I have in my son of fermentation chiller (exactly this) has live wiring going through it and absolutely cannot be submerged. There is a coil inside that compresses/expands based on the ambient air temp and controls a relay. Are there better, cheaper ones with probes?

I agree with air being much cleaner. Are you going to cut a hole in through the freezer door to run the flex duct?

I don't have a specific t-stat in mind, but you should be able to find a cheap one with a remote probe that you can submerge while keeping the electronics dry

 

[bertmurphy]

I agree with air being much cleaner. Are you going to cut a hole in through the freezer door to run the flex duct?

I'd been thinking of just taking off the freezer door and replacing it with some sort of foam insulation that could be mod'ed with outlets and inlets.

I don't have a specific t-stat in mind, but you should be able to find a cheap one with a remote probe that you can submerge while keeping the electronics dry

You would either need to get a digital thermostat and add a probe to it, or get a minimum $50 temp. controller. I don't know of any cheaper way to do it, but'd that'd be awesome if there were one.

 

[twd000]

I'd been thinking of just taking off the freezer door and replacing it with some sort of foam insulation that could be mod'ed with outlets and inlets.

You would either need to get a digital thermostat and add a probe to it, or get a minimum $50 temp. controller. I don't know of any cheaper way to do it, but'd that'd be awesome if there were one.

here is a $30 candidate: http://www.virtualvillage.com/tempe....html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shcomp

the wortomatic is impressive but seems like a messy solution to what should be a simple problem

 

[broadbill]

here is a $30 candidate: http://www.virtualvillage.com/tempe....html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shcomp

the wortomatic is impressive but seems like a messy solution to what should be a simple problem

How so?


When I think of messy solutions to simple problems, I think of all of these son-of-a-fermenter chiller builds people seem to go ga-ga over. Ugh, swapping out ice blocks 2 times a day for a month? No thanks...

To me, the wort-o-matic seems like a good idea if you could only have one unit in which to both brew and serve. That being said, I don't have one...

 

[bertmurphy]

My biggest qualm is that none of the large, fancier chillers address the issue of keeping the fermenters separated so you can maintain temperatures independently.

 

[broadbill]

My biggest qualm is that none of the large, fancier chillers address the issue of keeping the fermenters separated so you can maintain temperatures independently.

How far apart are you looking to keep the temps? If you are doing a lager and an ale, I heard/read that they'll keep the chamber at lager ferm temps, but put a fermentation belt to keep the ale slightly warmer. Both on temp control.

 

[bertmurphy]

How far apart are you looking to keep the temps?

Well, the biggest thing is that I want to have granular control over each of the fermenters. I want the ability to ferment different ales at different temperatures, and also to do diacetyl rests if needed. All without affecting the other fermentation vessels.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Based on the "Mother" I designed the Fermento-taper-lagerator. I am still planning to make it. My list is always long though...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/fermento-lager-taporator-81924/