Pilsnerwine anyone?

[Poindexter]

I am really loving the stuff in Mosher's Radical Brewing.

When I bottle my 888RIS tommorrow I won't have a big beer laying around to pull pint sized hydro samples from ;-)

So I think I am going to do a Pilsner wine. 60-70% pale malt, no specialty grains, 30-40% Dextrose for the grain bill. Target OG is 1.090, about 50 Rager I am gonna Kentucky windage for about 40 Tensith. Challenger I hear would be style correct if I can find them. If I can't find Challenger I'll probably bitter with Glacier and then finish with nobles.

I don't have lagering capabilities, so I am thinking a really clean ale yeast with agressive temperature control through primary to keep esters to a minimum. I think either wet Chico yeast or good old Nottingham Yellow will either one be fine; as long as my starter doesn't overcome my temp controller.

Has anyone ever heard of rice sugar? I would rather have 6 Buds in one bottle than 6 Millers. I guess I'll be hitting an Asian market soon.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

What the hell are you talking about?

Anymore than 8oz of Cornsugar and I believe you will begin to get that cider taste.

Id do lots of Pils, some carpils- and maybe even use Red Star yeast....

 

[Poindexter]

I thought dextrose fermented cleanly and it was sucrose that lead to cidery tastes. It'll be good for me to look it up again. Thanks for pointing out something I am not absolutely certain of.

EDITI: Charlie 3rd ed Complete Guide, pp357/ Troubleshooting/ Cidery: ...main reason is excessive amounts of corn sugar (dextrose- see wikipedia) or especially {italics mine-ed} cane or beet sugar (sucrose qv) is used. ...recipe using morethan 50% sugar is one to be wary of...

samey-same, pp84, miscellaneous ingredients/ corn sugar: corn sugar will lighten the flavor and body of the beer while boosting alcohol content...use in excess of 20% total fermentables will often contribute...dry "cidery" flavor.

So Charlie can't make up his mind. I got John Palmer open in another window.

Palmer wasnt real helpful to me beyond chalking acetyladehydes up to high fermentation temps. I guess I can throw my spunding valve on this and walk the aldehydes out after main ferment by easing the pressure down, but I wanted to use my spunding valve for something else.

 

[Brew-boy]

What the hell are you talking about?

Anymore than 8oz of Cornsugar and I believe you will begin to get that cider taste.

Id do lots of Pils, some carpils- and maybe even use Red Star yeast....

No thats not correct Many Belgians have a lot of sugar in them to get the gravity. Just like this golden strong ale I made it called for 3 pounds of sugar. They yeast will consume all of this.

 

[HP_Lovecraft]

I thought dextrose fermented cleanly and it was sucrose that lead to cidery tastes. It'll be good for me to look it up again. Thanks for pointing out something I am not absolutely certain of.
.

Both corn sugar and cane sugar ferment cleanly in smaller amounts. They are pretty much pure fermentables, with nothing else.

The reason they produce cidery flavors is large amounts is they lack the nutrients that the yeast need in order to effeciently convert the sugar to alchohol. Normally they just "borrow" the nutriets from the malt, which has excess.

But in large quantities, the yeast become unhealthy, and its the yeast that produce the off-flavors, not directly the sugar.

nick

 

[DuPuma]

I don't understand this half of the sentence at all: ". . . about 50 Rager I am gonna Kentucky windage for about 40 Tensith."

Can someone translate? Apparently, I am still a newb... The rest of the post made sense and sounds rather intriguing.

Edit: After some Googling, here is what I think this sentence means: "my beer will have approx. 50 IBU's according to Rager's IBU calculation method, and I'm going to adjust the aim in a slightly hillbilly way to approximate Tinseth's more accurate equations, and hopefully get about 40 IBU's via his method."

If that is accurate, the original 1/2 sentence is waaay to full of slang to be understood by a simple homebrewer like myself. I estimate IBU's using tasybrew.com's handy calculator. I have no idea whether they use the Rager, Tinseth, or Garetz (sp) method of IBU equation.

So, Poindexter, you want about 40 IBU's (Tinseth) for your Pilsnerwine? Sounds pretty cool. I'm interested to know how the beer turns out. Shoot, I might make it myself.

 

[Poindexter]

I don't understand this half of the sentence at all: ". . . about 50 Rager I am gonna Kentucky windage for about 40 Tensith."

Can someone translate? Apparently, I am still a newb... The rest of the post made sense and sounds rather intriguing.

Mr. Rager and Mr. Tensith both came up with formulas to estimate how much hop bitterness is going to be in a brew. One International Bittering Unit (1 IBU) is, IIRC, one milligram of isomerized alpha acid per liter of beer.

Now the real way to know is to send some of your beer off to a lab to have the isomerized alpha acid measured. Rager and Tensith are both predictive formulas.

I personally find the Tensith table easier for me to use, so I use it. I generally find with my tongue and my taste buds that a beer with 50 Rager predicted is going to taste about the same as a beer with 40 Tensith predicted IBUs.

If you use brewing software you can maybe select which formula is used and run the same recipe through both ways. "They" say 10 IBUs is the threshold of human taste, I dunno.

The recipe I am working from gives final predicted IBUs, and the guy uses Rager. After I know the SG in my brew kettle I can run the Tensith tables to come up with HBUs, and then I gotta know the AA% on the hops to come up with ounces, and my kettle comes to boil in 18 minutes on this stove, but I'll be able to get the same flavor batch to batch...

 

[DuPuma]

Mr. Rager and Mr. Tensith both came up with formulas to estimate how much hop bitterness is going to be in a brew. One International Bittering Unit (1 IBU) is, IIRC, one milligram of isomerized alpha acid per liter of beer.

Now the real way to know is to send some of your beer off to a lab to have the isomerized alpha acid measured. Rager and Tensith are both predictive formulas.

I personally find the Tensith table easier for me to use, so I use it. I generally find with my tongue and my taste buds that a beer with 50 Rager predicted is going to taste about the same as a beer with 40 Tensith predicted IBUs.

If you use brewing software you can maybe select which formula is used and run the same recipe through both ways. "They" say 10 IBUs is the threshold of human taste, I dunno.

The recipe I am working from gives final predicted IBUs, and the guy uses Rager. After I know the SG in my brew kettle I can run the Tensith tables to come up with HBUs, and then I gotta know the AA% on the hops to come up with ounces, and my kettle comes to boil in 18 minutes on this stove, but I'll be able to get the same flavor batch to batch...

THank you! I first googled Tinseth and Rager, and discovered a very interesting article about hop IBU. Then I google Kentucky windage, and the sentence made sense. Now I have to find a way to get the phrase "Kentucky windage" into my everyday speech.

 

[gruntingfrog]

"They" say 10 IBUs is the threshold of human taste...

I think you meant 100, otherwise Budweiser and Arrogant Bastard would taste the same (as far as bitterness anyway).

I made a very similar beer (somewhat smaller at 1.06, but similar) and used 30% rice solids for the adjunct. It was a huge hit with my BMC drinking friends, but still tasted good to the rest of us because I threw in a couple of late hop additions.

 

[Poindexter]

I think you meant 100, otherwise Budweiser and Arrogant Bastard would taste the same (as far as bitterness anyway).

I made a very similar beer (somewhat smaller at 1.06, but similar) and used 30% rice solids for the adjunct. It was a huge hit with my BMC drinking friends, but still tasted good to the rest of us because I threw in a couple of late hop additions.

OK. I am still reading up on what sugars I should get out of rice if I deal with mashing it.

Thanks.

 

[the_bird]

You may be pushing the bounds with that much table sugar. What about some rice solids? Not as cheap, but maybe less problematic than that much table sugar.

I'd mash as low as I could (maybe 147°-148°) for ninety minutes to maximize attenuation. Keep the temp on the cool side for the first few days, but once the yeast have finished reproducing, I wouldn't be afraid to let it ramp up a bit (fusels are formed early in the fermentation process, letting it heat up later on will help promote attenuation).

BLESS YOU for making a big-"pilsner" and remembering that the key attribute that MAKES something a "Pils" is that it's dry! Can you talk to Dogfish Head for me on this issue?

If you can finish with Saaz, that's what I would do. That'll help add some of that classic Pils flavor and remind people of what they're drinking.

 

[sully]

to be a pilsner wine i would think you would need to use pilsner malt, and a pilsner or lager yeast. that recipe just looks lke a barleywine to me.

 

[gruntingfrog]

Rice Syrup Solids

 

[Poindexter]

Ok, the LHBS had 4# of rice syrup solids. Now I have those. I am expecting those to come in at 40 point PPG (or lower), so 160 points there, looking for 5 @90 for 450 total.

Great Scott! I still need 260 points of Pilsner malt.

My cunning plan is to run a 2.5# pilsner mash long and low, and then use that wort to mash another 2.5# pounds of pilsner long and low. This I can do with my apartment dweller PM gear, I should get close to 120, maybe 150 points out of the kettle, so 100 some points of extra light DME and I got it.

In the meantime I have two batches to bottle and a batch of chili to start, finish and clean up after before I can brew.

I got just the rice syrup solids today, I'll go back for grain, XL DME, hops and yeast after thekitchenis clean again.

I am thinking maybe glacier to bitter, Halelrtau to finish. Yeast is open.


I am more and more likely to run this at about 15psi with my spunding valve. That will give some leeway on temperature control. Walking the pressure down to just atmospheric slowly over the course of several days and last few points should clear it up well.

Thanks for the pointers so far. Off to wash some bottles.

 

[the_bird]

The other thing you can do to promote attenuation is to add some of the rice syrup solids after fermenation has begun. Just boil them up in a small amount of water, cool, and add to the active fermentation.

 

[Poindexter]

So about this diacetyl rest thing. I am comfortable brewing Brit ales and US ales. This is my first German style brew.

I launched this thing at 1.092 on 1 test tube of White San Fransisco Lager yeast (WLP810), and I am using 20 pounds of ice daily to keep it in the low 60s F. I pitched 8 days (160 pounds of ice ago) and I am down to 1.032 just now.

I need to go to Houston tomorrow. If I ice it down again right before I leave in the morning it will be up, I expect, to 65+°F inside the fermenter when I get home. Should I ask my neighbor to come over and keep it iced, or am I close enough for a diacetyl rest now?

I have been holding the fermenter at 58-62°F.

Thanks