Picobrew Z

CornyKegs 728
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I recently bought a scale to measure water. My main goal in buying this scale was speeding up the brew setup process by weighing a single volume of brewing water. I think that speed up is definitely worthwhile. I also weigh the final wort and calculate that volume. Measuring volumes after the brew is a nice to have but not crucial.

The weighing surface dimensions of the scale I picked are 9.45”x11”. That allows me to place the empty keg on the scale and measure out brewing water. Weighing the brewing water as it is added to the keg is way faster than weighing one gallon at a time. I think it is also more accurate that using a graduated container (measuring cup) to measure water.

The second way I use the scale is after the brew I place my empty fermenter on the scale and press tare. I then pour the wort into the fermenter and get an accurate weight of the wort. I then use BeerSmith’s weight to volume tool to convert to volume. That tool takes specific gravity into account. I think this is a very accurate way to measure volumes.

I bought this scale ($38.99):
Accuteck A-BC200 200LB x 0.2 OZ: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076ZWTW7M

I wanted to estimate the accuracy of the scale. These are not perfect tests but they give me a warm fuzzy. I weighed two things on this scale and a smaller kitchen scale I use to weigh grain and hops.

First, I weighed a 500 gram calibration weight. Both scales read exactly 500 grams.

Second, I weighed a one gallon bottle (milk jug) empty and full on both scales.

Accuteck A-BC200 scale
Empty bottle: 0.14 lbs, 65g
Full bottle 8.44 lbs, 3830g,
(8.44-0.14) / 8.34 => 0.995 gallons

Kitchen scale (Ozeri ZK240)
Empty bottle: 0.16 lbs, 71g
Full bottle: 8.43 lbs, 3822g
(8.43-0.16) / 8.34 => 0.992 gallons

The weights for PicoBrew Z1 batches are in the range of 35-40 lbs (keg plus brew water) depending on the amount of water. So the above tests are helpful but not perfect.
 
Wonder when the lights go dark? Did a anyone ever wireshark the z? I assumed they did https on it. One of the many reasons i bailed since i couldn't get a straight answer. Or a delivery date.
 
Kevin posted on the official PicoBrew forums. Quoted below..


As you may have heard, we are currently in the process of being sold through the WA State Receivership process. The party of investors who have been funding the operation of our company over the last year have submitted a bid and plans to continue its support during this process. We anticipate no interruption of sales or support to our valued customers during this period.
 
macgyuver said:
Kevin posted on the official PicoBrew forums. Quoted below..


As you may have heard, we are currently in the process of being sold through the WA State Receivership process. The party of investors who have been funding the operation of our company over the last year have submitted a bid and plans to continue its support during this process. We anticipate no interruption of sales or support to our valued customers during this period.
Click to expand...

That's a major concern.
 
So - as a Brewie (and Z2) owner who saw the lights go dark with Brewie, I think it would be to our benefit to insist that they create an offline capability as soon as possible. At least with Brewie, despite the company going belly-up with no communication at all before or after, the unit still functions without their being whole.

In the case of Brewie users, many of us banded together after the fact (too late) and are supporting one another with parts, concepts, ideas, etc.

In Picos case, if they are to go under - we should establish all of this up front. Also, we should collectively push hard on them for a post-Pico solution NOW.
 
So - as a Brewie (and Z2) owner who saw the lights go dark with Brewie, I think it would be to our benefit to insist that they create an offline capability as soon as possible. At least with Brewie, despite the company going belly-up with no communication at all before or after, the unit still functions without their being whole.

In the case of Brewie users, many of us banded together after the fact (too late) and are supporting one another with parts, concepts, ideas, etc.

In Picos case, if they are to go under - we should establish all of this up front. Also, we should collectively push hard on them for a post-Pico solution NOW.
 
jcaiola said:
So - as a Brewie (and Z2) owner who saw the lights go dark with Brewie, I think it would be to our benefit to insist that they create an offline capability as soon as possible. At least with Brewie, despite the company going belly-up with no communication at all before or after, the unit still functions without their being whole.

In the case of Brewie users, many of us banded together after the fact (too late) and are supporting one another with parts, concepts, ideas, etc.

In Picos case, if they are to go under - we should establish all of this up front. Also, we should collectively push hard on them for a post-Pico solution NOW.
Click to expand...

If in the judge's hands, then PicoBrew doesn't have lots of power to do anything.
 
jcaiola said:
So - as a Brewie (and Z2) owner who saw the lights go dark with Brewie, I think it would be to our benefit to insist that they create an offline capability as soon as possible. At least with Brewie, despite the company going belly-up with no communication at all before or after, the unit still functions without their being whole.

In the case of Brewie users, many of us banded together after the fact (too late) and are supporting one another with parts, concepts, ideas, etc.

In Picos case, if they are to go under - we should establish all of this up front. Also, we should collectively push hard on them for a post-Pico solution NOW.
Click to expand...

The only option I see is that they spin off minimal support of hardware and the connection, then charge a monthly or annual fee.
 
jcaiola said:
So - as a Brewie (and Z2) owner who saw the lights go dark with Brewie, I think it would be to our benefit to insist that they create an offline capability as soon as possible. At least with Brewie, despite the company going belly-up with no communication at all before or after, the unit still functions without their being whole.

In the case of Brewie users, many of us banded together after the fact (too late) and are supporting one another with parts, concepts, ideas, etc.

In Picos case, if they are to go under - we should establish all of this up front. Also, we should collectively push hard on them for a post-Pico solution NOW.
Click to expand...


I'd make sure you have exported or printed all your recipes. Today when I logged on, my recipes area was a bit weird telling me the last time I brewed was in 1969. I had a few other errors saying that I had more than 4 adjuncts which is impossible. There may already be people sabotaging things.
 
jcaiola said:
Also, we should collectively push hard on them for a post-Pico solution NOW.
Click to expand...
Good luck pushing. They will just ban you from the support forum and block. A lot of people are about to learn a very expensive lesson.
 
I think it wouldn’t hurt for the community to push for that as a group. That wouldn’t get you booted.

As for copying your recipes down, many of us have them in brewfather or other programs. It’s just being able to use them offline that presents a problem.
 
Anyone know who the bridge lender was that pushed them over the edge? I know they took money from ZX Ventures/Inbev at one point. Would be a shame if that was what ultimately did them in. I mean Im not crying. This is actually fascinating. And amusing.
 
Brewfreedom said:
Anyone know who the bridge lender was that pushed them over the edge? I know they took money from ZX Ventures/Inbev at one point. Would be a shame if that was what ultimately did them in. I mean Im not crying. This is actually fascinating. And amusing.
Click to expand...

Eh. The bridge lenders calling the loan isn't what did them in - the other debt is what ultimately did it. The bridge lenders are effectively acting as a "stalking horse" bid in this case which would allow them to get the assets of the firm unencumbered by the existing debt. The real question is what is valuable in the firm's estate.

That said - Anyone want to go in with me for a bid for the website & domain name? :)
 
The absolute minimum they should do if they go under is open source their server side code and firmware. I am a developer, I'd support/create a project to maintain or enhance their code and run the server side services. We shouldn't have to reverse engineer the protocol and bin dump the firmware. Although if they are taken over and debt is discharged they might be able to run profitably. At least I got everything promised in the Z purchase proposal and am whole on that. Just don't want to have a cloud connected brick.
 
Mutant said:
The only option I see is that they spin off minimal support of hardware and the connection, then charge a monthly or annual fee.
Click to expand...

As a developer I am wary of any device that has some cloud connection and zero fee. That means the company doesn't have an incentive or future suitors have an incentive to run it. We are in a world where full time engineers are getting paid a ton of money so for such a small pool of people like this device it is hard to run a service with monthly fees. I'd imagine the hardware to run this is quite cheap but maintaining it, backing it up, and doing periodic enhancements costs money. I think the best thing for us would be open sourcing it so expensive developers will make features as a hobby and have a small foundation to pay for AWS/Azure costs to run it.
 
cheesemonster said:
The absolute minimum they should do if they go under is open source their server side code and firmware. I am a developer, I'd support/create a project to maintain or enhance their code and run the server side services. We shouldn't have to reverse engineer the protocol and bin dump the firmware. Although if they are taken over and debt is discharged they might be able to run profitably. At least I got everything promised in the Z purchase proposal and am whole on that. Just don't want to have a cloud connected brick.
Click to expand...
Sure. But I'd be confident that the server side code is considered an asset owned by picobrew. Those assets are likely to be sold so that the lenders can recover some of their money. At this point, you're relying on either the buyer of those assets to open source them, or someone with access to the code to leak it. Either one could happen, but neither one is a guarantee by any means. Perhaps a more likely scenario is what Mutant said:
Mutant said:
The only option I see is that they spin off minimal support of hardware and the connection, then charge a monthly or annual fee.
Click to expand...
That at least gives existing picobrew users a usable machine without major tinkering, albeit with some sort of recurring fee. How many pico users would actually pay this fee going forward? How long would that service be able to stay afloat?

Hate to say it, but the future for these machines is looking fairly bleak at the moment.
 
TallDan said:
Sure. But I'd be confident that the server side code is considered an asset owned by picobrew. Those assets are likely to be sold so that the lenders can recover some of their money. At this point, you're relying on either the buyer of those assets to open source them, or someone with access to the code to leak it. Either one could happen, but neither one is a guarantee by any means. Perhaps a more likely scenario is what Mutant said:

That at least gives existing picobrew users a usable machine without major tinkering, albeit with some sort of recurring fee. How many pico users would actually pay this fee going forward? How long would that service be able to stay afloat?

Hate to say it, but the future for these machines is looking fairly bleak at the moment.
Click to expand...

Given that the server is now HTTPS instead of HTTP, the HTTPS would have to be associated with www.picobrew.com or whatever they are using for HTTPS
 
I'm going to spin off ~30 gallons of an Light American Lager in the next week or two - it might be my last batches??? This Light American Lager recipe would pull 44+ points in competition, and you can drink it all day long: 3.4%ABV, SRM 2, and 103.7 calories.
 
I’m being ignorant here and call me a millennial but in 2020 I just find it very hard for them to go dark with no recourse, refund, or some sort of we f**ked up package. ESPECIALLY, for folks who just bought a Pico Z in the past year. It could take quite some time to see anything of it but you can’t have something just become completely unusable without some sort of consumer protection issue and I believe it is in their best interest as other stated to offer some sort of ability albeit a subscription service to continue brewing on these machines.
 
Virginia_Ranger said:
I’m being ignorant here and call me a millennial but in 2020 I just find it very hard for them to go dark with no recourse, refund, or some sort of we f**ked up package. ESPECIALLY, for folks who just bought a Pico Z in the past year. It could take quite some time to see anything of it but you can’t have something just become completely unusable without some sort of consumer protection issue and I believe it is in their best interest as other stated to offer some sort of ability albeit a subscription service to continue brewing on these machines.
Click to expand...

Sadly, there are plenty of examples out there that prove your faith in a guaranteed solution for Z owners misguided. From personal experience, there's the BeerBug which required a cloud app to collect fermentation data. The services went dark one day, and suddenly I was stuck with a $250 paperweight. Outside the brewing realm, there's the Martian smartwatch, the Zune music store, DivX DVD players, and plenty more that I can't think of off the top of my head. Remember this when you "buy" games on Steam, "buy" music on the iTunes store, or "buy" whatever the heck it is that Farmville sells.

Even if it was a consumer protection issue - the company is in receivership. The best you'd have is a claim against the estate. As far as it not being in their best interests -- the company is in receivership. They no longer have "best interests" - they're dead.

That said, the ship hasn't yet sailed - there is still hope. As I mentioned in my earlier post, supposedly the bridge investor is acting as a stalking horse bidder which implies that there is at least some value seen in the assets of the company. It is reasonably likely that the buyer will discontinue certain products which aren't profitable, adjust pricing on those that are, and keep the business alive in some form.

I wasn't kidding about wanting to submit a bid for just the assets needed to keep the devices active either - if anyone reading this has any knowledge on how to actually do so, PM me. I promise that if I win I will not charge too much to keep your Z humming. Fermentrack integration, anyone?
 
RCW 7.60.015 now provides a distinction between two types of receiverships – a general receivership and a custodial receivership. A general receiver is appointed to take possession and control of “substantially all of a person’s property with authority to liquidate that property.” A custodial receiver is “appointed to take charge of limited or specific property of a person or is not given authority to liquidate property.”

So which type of receivership is this?
 
Mutant said:
RCW 7.60.015 now provides a distinction between two types of receiverships – a general receivership and a custodial receivership. A general receiver is appointed to take possession and control of “substantially all of a person’s property with authority to liquidate that property.” A custodial receiver is “appointed to take charge of limited or specific property of a person or is not given authority to liquidate property.”

So which type of receivership is this?
Click to expand...

I'm guessing general, but I haven't heard anyone post any specifics/details.
 
See https://banknewsnow.com/2020/02/07/picobrew-is-up-for-sale/

[Bill] Mitchell indicated the bridge lending group has plans to continue funding the company through the Washington State receivership process and hopes to essentially take full ownership of the company with a winning bid, but runs the risk that another bidder will swoop in with a higher bid.
 
As others have said the ship hasn’t said yet but theres no reason to not contingency plan! I totally agree with their given situation recourse is probably limited, can’t go after a ghost. That being said someone will pick up the Pico idea and even name and run with it again but in a digital age your social media reputation can brake you. If Pico or the idea of it that eventually gets sold is to survive in any form it would do well for them to not crap on a potentially vocal user base.

AGAIN, that’s if **** hits the fan I’m optimistic it won’t but I encourage any Pico users to start ringing the bell early and see what our options are before it ever comes to that. Me being a fear monger won’t matter much but all of us being that way and vocal (social media) might light a big enough fire to be seen from space.
 
Here is some of the network traffic from a PicoBrew 'Z'. Definitely HTTPS to 137.117.17.70.

2020-02-13 14:52:01 Allow 192.168.111.78 129.250.35.251 1030 53 0-Trusted 0-External Allowed 62 127 (DNS.1-00) proc_id="firewall" rc="100" msg_id="3000-0148" src_ip_nat="104.11.45.133"
2020-02-13 14:52:01 Allow 192.168.111.78 137.117.17.70 1028 443 0-Trusted 0-External Allowed 44 127 (HTTPS-00) proc_id="firewall" rc="100" msg_id="3000-0148" src_ip_nat="104.11.45.133" tcp_info="offset 6 S 1409255379 win 2048"
2020-02-13 14:57:29 Allow 192.168.111.78 129.250.35.251 1029 53 0-Trusted 0-External Allowed 62 127 (DNS.1-00) proc_id="firewall" rc="100" msg_id="3000-0148" src_ip_nat="104.11.45.133"
2020-02-13 14:57:29 Allow 192.168.111.78 137.117.17.70 1029 443 0-Trusted 0-External Allowed 44 127 (HTTPS-00) proc_id="firewall" rc="100" msg_id="3000-0148" src_ip_nat="104.11.45.133" tcp_info="offset 6 S 1028575052 win 2048"
 
Last edited:
alestateyall said:
If the Z is disconnected from Wifi can you brew a previously synced recipe?
Click to expand...

No idea, but I doubt it as it likely synchs each time you turn it on. You can test by disconnecting from the internet, but I doubt it will work at all.
 
Mutant said:
If this all goes belly-up, I'll be investigating a Spike system even though it would cost more or less $5K. My limitation is no 30A or 50A circuit at the moment.
Click to expand...

I’ve been wondering my self, what systems are closest to the Pico in automation? I’d actually love to go to a bigger system but I want something with a large amount of automation or programmability. I’ve heard others mention the Brew Boss but I’ve also heard mixed reviews on those.
 
Thorrak said:
Are there variants that do less than 5 gallon batches?
Click to expand...

I haven't looked at their web site for some time. You might just have to ask, as they'd probably build whatever you want. If I recall, it takes a few months to get what you order - but not as long as you probably waiting for your 'Z'.
 
I will have to check the Z to see if it will still brew after loosing internet connection, if it retains the previously synced recipes. I will say that the Pico Pro/S C will not do anything after it looses internet connection. I found this out the other day by accident while sniffing network traffic. Once it lost connection and it was told to do something it called home and threw error 10 network disconnected.
 
Mutant said:
I haven't looked at their web site for some time. You might just have to ask, as they'd probably build whatever you want. If I recall, it takes a few months to get what you order - but not as long as you probably waiting for your 'Z'.
Click to expand...
I set up a call with them for later this morning. I’ll be curious to see what they have to sell
 
macgyuver said:
I will have to check the Z to see if it will still brew after loosing internet connection, if it retains the previously synced recipes. I will say that the Pico Pro/S C will not do anything after it looses internet connection. I found this out the other day by accident while sniffing network traffic. Once it lost connection and it was told to do something it called home and threw error 10 network disconnected.
Click to expand...

I am planning to write some generic recipes (common hop profiles basically) and then load these on my Z. If the Z will run with out network connection I think I could keep using it with the generic recipes even if Picobrew goes out of business.

I noticed I only use a few hop profiles.

A recipe with First Wort Hop, 30 minute, 15 minute, and 5 minute additions would cover almost every recipe I brew. If didn’t need an addition I could leave that hop container empty.

Grain bill and other info entered on the Picobrew recipe builder doesn’t really matter for operating the machine.

The only other thing you need is the amount of water to add. That could from a table or just knowing from experience.
 
There have been several that do the generic profile and just change the ingredients and not the steps.. Would be interested to see if the few recipes will be maintained in the on board memory and run without calling home. Please keep everyone informed on what you find out.
 
macgyuver said:
I will have to check the Z to see if it will still brew after loosing internet connection, if it retains the previously synced recipes. I will say that the Pico Pro/S C will not do anything after it looses internet connection. I found this out the other day by accident while sniffing network traffic. Once it lost connection and it was told to do something it called home and threw error 10 network disconnected.
Click to expand...
last brew , I lost connection and it continued brewing. it also gave me the option to reconnect to WiFi. Before when I lost connection, the whole brew stopped.
 

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