PicoBrew Pico users

[jrb03]

Yep. I honestly never even considered dry hopping at day 3 as the manual says. But I does beg the question who wrote this manual? I'm a hobby homebrewer and I knew enough to disregard this advice right away. You would think with professional brewmasters on staff this wouldn't get out the door in this form

Totally agree, when I first went through the process I thought you want me to pitch this whole packet of yeast in this little keg? I look at it this way, the promotional videos promise some beers are ready in a week. Everything is geared around fast turnaround, and I admit I got duped a little myself. But thankfully for me quick turnaround was not one of the reasons I bought the Pico as real world experience is proving that there is not much time savings with the Pico to get excellent beer. To give their brewmaster Annie credit, she is very open and admits to all this, unofficially. If you email support they will stick to what's in the manual. It's pretty clear she didn't have any input in the manual and she has stated she is pushing for changes and creating some instructional videos. I can see why they are hesitant to put things like "pitch less than half the pack of yeast" in the manual, with smaller yeast packets coming soon you don't want to cause confusion with different versions of manuals out there. But there has to be a way to communicate with us early adopters in the mean time.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Agreed, and facebook aint it. They have forums on their site, but there is no link to it, and it seems to be geared mainly towards the Zymatic.

 

[jrb03]

Agreed, and facebook aint it. They have forums on their site, but there is no link to it, and it seems to be geared mainly towards the Zymatic.

Correct, you have to have a zymatic or kegsmarts linked to your account for the forum link to show up. Trust me your not missing anything there, the forums are dead.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Correct, you have to have a zymatic or kegsmarts linked to your account for the forum link to show up. Trust me your not missing anything there, the forums are dead.

Exactly! They need to start using that ****e instead of making people go to 3rd party sites like facebook. A lot of people dont have a facebook account, and dont want one.

 

[Lbarouf]

If you can get it out without destroying it of course you can reuse. They are a pain and a lot of people can't seem to get them out without breaking.

Greaaaat. Thanks the heads up, looking forward to cleaning that then. Maybe I will continue bottling instead.

 

[Lbarouf]

Do yourself a favor and invest in a real kegging system. Those serving kegs are a pain in the arse.

I hear you. When we'll move back into a house we will, for now, it's small batches. If I would have space for a another fridge, for sure it would be a kegarator. I figure I just need to suck it up for 2-3 years.

 

[Lbarouf]

Yep. I honestly never even considered dry hopping at day 3 as the manual says. But I does beg the question who wrote this manual? I'm a hobby homebrewer and I knew enough to disregard this advice right away. You would think with professional brewmasters on staff this wouldn't get out the door in this form

Or a typo? I guess they did not proofread, and meant to write 8 days instead of 3. The effects are indeed bad enough to perhaps turn away a newbie after the first "blah" batch. But agreed.... it's a small outfit, I guess the deserve we point it out to them. so the mistake does not stay too long on the electronic version of the manual.

 

[Lbarouf]

But there has to be a way to communicate with us early adopters in the mean time.

Totally agree. Perhaps it's putting the forums back up on their own site. Someone should monitor. Do they even seem to 1. be aware of the issue and 2. management open to tweaking?

The seem to let us believe they are open to changes and let them improve, but we don't see the change. Maybe they just need to say, hey guys, we heard you and are working on it. They technically don't owe us anything other than a great beer making machine and flawless process. That second part I have an issue with.

 

[Lbarouf]

Exactly! They need to start using that ****e instead of making people go to 3rd party sites like facebook. A lot of people dont have a facebook account, and dont want one.

+1 here. I like this site and forum channel. Ultimately though, I don't believe that from here we can have a proper impact on things that ought to be changed.

In the meantime, we should continue helping each other.

I thought of creating list that could be a sticky perhaps. A list of DOs and DONTs for newbies, highlighting things the manual says that is wrong, or does not cover. What do you guys think? We could say if it applies to certain styles or any style. Anything you believe should make it to the list? Any moderators here that can create sticky?

 

[jrb03]

A user on the Facebook group created a FAQ that he is updating as he goes through the learning process. He is over 20 batches in already. I will ask him if I can link to his FAQ, it is on a wordpress site.

And to be clear, the Facebook group is not an official Picobrew group. It was started by a group of zymatic owners years back, and they invited Annie to join in their discussion. Pico users have now joined the group and Annie responds to questions and complaints every now and then, in an unofficial capacity. It's nice to get insight from her but it is a group of users like us here, nothing official.

 

[Pelikan11]

I made the same yeast mistake as well. I thought it seemed like too much but then thought to myself well you are always making starters to pitch MORE yeast in your 5 gal batches so why not

 

[bobbob911]

Or a typo? I guess they did not proofread, and meant to write 8 days instead of 3. The effects are indeed bad enough to perhaps turn away a newbie after the first "blah" batch. But agreed.... it's a small outfit, I guess the deserve we point it out to them. so the mistake does not stay too long on the electronic version of the manual.

They definitely don't consider it a typo - I've confirmed with their support guys they recommend pitching hops after 3 days. I guess if you are FF at high temps and the wort is perfectly aerated etc etc maybe it's possible?

I just don't see any advantage to them being aggressive with the times given. They can't possibly think the target market is interested in fast beer over good beer.

 

[hopsaurus]

I was looking at water profiles for my GrainFather and after a couple of 'Belle of the Balls' from the PicoBrew, something struck me.
As we receive these PicoPacks, we (I assume all of us) see residual ingredients in the shipping bag. I've written this off as finely ground grist that can be discarded. Now I'm wondering if this is not Calcium Carbonate or other adjuncts that should be added back to the water (future wort). Seems that an imbalance could cause some discrepancy in flavor.

On another topic, the Belle I'm drinking is pretty good, but I'm sure suffers a bit from the full yeast pack (rehydrated) that I used. Not a bad taste really, if that is the intent of the style. One thing I noticed is in the mash history graphic, I only got a 44 minute boil. Anyone else seen apparent truncation in the boil phase?

 

[jrb03]

That's a normal boil time. Taste that fine powder next time, its sweet and sticky. DME I assume.

 

[Lbarouf]

If it went through the filter, I don't see how we could add it back without going through again. I would rather have the fine powder out the in and making it to the serving keg.

how much powder did you see? I see maybe a quarter ounce in mine. Not sure it's enough to make a difference in 1.8Gal if it's grains. DME , maybe.

 

[jrb03]

I get a small amount, a tsp at most and would be a pain to recover. I see more powder in the bigger beers which also points towards DME. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[wallstrum]

we are looking at getting a reverse osmosis system from Costco. There's a 5 stages ones where the filters are not so expensive. Overall, I believe it's more expensive then going to buy the big 5Gal at the grocery store, but for the amount of water we use, it is a convenience for sure. It's nice to have an extra tap for fresh clean water...

We have a 4 stage RO filter from Costco on our kitchen sink and it's awesome. It has just enough capacity to do a rinse cycle on the Pico, then fill the keg and reservoir for a brew cycle. No lugging water from the store.

I hear you. When we'll move back into a house we will, for now, it's small batches. If I would have space for a another fridge, for sure it would be a kegarator. I figure I just need to suck it up for 2-3 years.

I think he was referring more to real kegs vs. a kegerator. I bought several extra brewing kegs with my Pico, knowing that I'd want to serve out of those and not bother with the sh!tty "serving keg" that came with it (I haven't even taken my "serving keg" out of the box). After my beer is done fermenting, I just rack to a clean (sanitized!) "brewing keg", chill in my fridge while it carbonates (I have a CO2 tank, but there are instructions people have posted on the Facebook group to convert the Pico CO2 regulator to a ball lock one), and serve with a ball lock picnic/cobra tap. It's pretty slick, way easier to clean, and not as much of a PITA as i hear people talking about with the "serving kegs".

I get a small amount, a tsp at most and would be a pain to recover. I see more powder in the bigger beers which also points towards DME. I wouldn't worry about it.

I've had varying amounts in my Pico packs, and I always just dump it on the top filter of the pack before I put the step filter on, figuring it'll make its way into the brew at some point

Wally

 

[Lbarouf]

We have a 4 stage RO filter from Costco on our kitchen sink and it's awesome. It has just enough capacity to do a rinse cycle on the Pico, then fill the keg and reservoir for a brew cycle. No lugging water from the store.

That's great to know. Thanks... I believe that's what we will buy.

I think he was referring more to real kegs vs. a kegerator. I bought several extra brewing kegs with my Pico, knowing that I'd want to serve out of those and not bother with the sh!tty "serving keg" that came with it (I haven't even taken my "serving keg" out of the box). After my beer is done fermenting, I just rack to a clean (sanitized!) "brewing keg", chill in my fridge while it carbonates (I have a CO2 tank, but there are instructions people have posted on the Facebook group to convert the Pico CO2 regulator to a ball lock one), and serve with a ball lock picnic/cobra tap. It's pretty slick, way easier to clean, and not as much of a PITA as i hear people talking about with the "serving kegs".

Ah... Yes, I am realizing the serving kegs are nice in principle, but a rain plain in the neck.

 

[Pelikan11]

My god the serving kegs suck. I have a kegerator but didn't have an empty keg available for my first batch. These serving kegs are awful. I tried to use it under continuous low CO2 but it still flew out like a fire hose even at 3 PSI. So then I put the disposable top bung in and tried that way and the flow took forever. Has anyone put a Pico batch in a 5 gal corny and purged the headspace? I guess I could just buy a second keg but more often then not I have a 5 gal available

 

[wallstrum]

Has anyone put a Pico batch in a 5 gal corny and purged the headspace? I guess I could just buy a second keg but more often then not I have a 5 gal available

I asked Pico support about brewing directly into a 5 gal keg but they advised against it because of too much foam getting generated, and not enough heat retention with the larger headspace. I've resorted to brewing and cooling 2 batches of the same beer and racking them both into a 5 gal to ferment. After fermentation I rack into a 3 gal keg to carb and serve from (you could use a 5 gal too, but I figured by using a 3 gal I could fit it into my regular fridge, plus waste less CO2 in the long run).

Wally

 

[jrb03]

Don't brew in a bigger keg but you should be able to serve from one although not ideal. The Pico kegs are pretty nice, I have 4 and always have two fermenting/crashing and two serving. Loving this Pico pipeline!

 

[DrGMG]

After using it 3 times, I opted for not using the fastferment. The last 2 brews have been a lot better fermenting at 68 degrees for a week. I've done the Pliny clone (3), Tweaties and Buffalo Sweat.

 

[jrb03]

Using the fast ferment valve at 68 is the same as using an airlock at 68. You only get faster fermentation with higher temps, but in my experience it's not that much faster. I use the FF adapter because my household temps are too warm for standard fermentation, getting awesome results with it at 73 but have to give it more time than the book says. If you follow the timeline in the manual you will get poor results. Whether using FF or standard I would go 10 days minimum to be safe, assuming your not taking fg readings which is pretty pointless in the Pico sized batch.

 

[jrb03]

Here is a post Denny Conn made in the Facebook group, he gave me permission to share it here. Denny is a master homebrewer, written 4 books on homebrewing, has a Pico pak for sale in the marketplace, and can be seen in Picobrew ads and promotional videos. A good explanation on why to pitch less yeast.

#Pico In regards to how much yeast to pitch in the Pico....many years ago, I asked Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand about the relationship of pitching rate to ester production. In a nutshell, he said that the same enzyme, acetyl coA, was responsible for both cell growth and ester production and that when it was doing one it wasn't doing the other. So my theory is that when you pitch and entire pack of dry yeast into a 1.25 gal. batch, there is no need (or food) much cell growth so the enzyme goes to work producing esters instead. By pitching less yeast, I've been getting cleaner beer. I'll follow with his answer in whole....



Ester and other flavor component production or synthesis is a complex subject because there are so many variables taking place at the same time. You are right, ester production is related to yeast growth but not in the way you might think. The key element to yeast growth and ester production is acyl Co-A. It is necessary for both yeast growth and ester production. When it is busy with yeast growth, during the early part of the fermentation, it is not available for ester production. Ester production is directly related to biomass production. Everything that increases biomass production (intensive aeration, sufficient amount of unsaturated fatty acids, stirring) decreases ester production. The more biomass that is produced the more Co-enzyme A is used and therefore not available for ester production. Anything that inhibits or slows down yeast growth usually causes an increase in ester production: low nutrient, low O2. It has been noted that a drop in available O2 from 8 ppm down to 3 ppm can cause a four fold increase in esters.

Stirring in normal gravity decreases ester production. Stirring in high gravity increases ester production. CO2 pressure in early fermentation decreases ester production. Taller fermenters produce less esters than short fermenters. High temperature early in fermentation decreases ester production. High temperature later in fermentation increases ester production. Low pitching rate can result in less esters.

There are other flavor components such as higher alcohol that have there own set of variables. Stirring increases production of higher alcohols. CO2 pressure does not effect the production of alcohol. Amino acid levels in the wort effect the production of higher alcohols. Most of the higher alcohol is produced during the growth phase (exponential phase) of the yeast. I am sure that there are many other variables. I am also sure that there are beer makers that have experienced the very opposite with each of the variables.

Pitching rates depend on several factors:

(1) The speed in which you wish the fermentation to take place. Some professional brew master are in more of a hurry than others; desired beer style, shortage of fermenter space. Pitching rates would vary as a means to increase or decrease the total fermentation time. 10 X 10/6th cell population for normal fermentation rates. 20 X 10/6th or more for a quick turn around.

(2) Temperature control. If lack of refrigeration is a problem, the fermentation needs to be spread out over a longer period by pitching with less yeast.

(3) Health of the pitching yeast. If the pitching yeast has not been stored under ideal conditions (4C for less than one week) then larger pitching rate must be done to compensate for the deteriorate of the yeast. Increased pitching rates has its limits in trying to compensate for poor storage conditions.

(1) When all other variables are under control you can use variations in pitching rates to achieve certain flavor profile that are of interest to you.

Conventional wisdom regarding pitching rate can lead to problems. During each fermentation cycle the yeast will increase in size about three times, so if you use all the yeast from the previous batch you will soon be pitching with a huge amount of yeast. Professional brewers usually re-pitch with about 25% of the yeast from the previous batch.

Proper handling of the yeast during storage (4C and <7 days) will minimize any problem with long lag phase. Start with a fresh culture of yeast after about five recycles for bacteria control and or after 10 - 15 cycles for genetic drift purposes.

 

[Lbarouf]

4C and < 7 days!!!

Well, it pretty much takes 7+ days to get my packs.

So, unless I buy fresh yeast from the store, I can't use Yeast from ideal conditions.

Anyone can comment on repeated results of liquid vs dry yeast?

 

[jrb03]

4C and < 7 days!!!

Well, it pretty much takes 7+ days to get my packs.

So, unless I buy fresh yeast from the store, I can't use Yeast from ideal conditions.

Anyone can comment on repeated results of liquid vs dry yeast?

That is for liquid yeast, needs to be stored in a fridge, which makes shipping it a tricky and expensive deal. Dry yeast is prepared and packaged to last a long time at ambient temps, no worries with your yeast shipped in packs. My years of experience says liquid is better, how much better hard to quantify. I'm currently using liquid in last few Pico batches myself and loving the results, not that the dry was bad when using the appropriate amount. I have done two double brew days, splitting a vial of liquid yeast between the two both times. I will continue to do that until the liquid yeast option from Pico is available.

 

[Mannhec]

I brewed and racked my first yesterday, Half Squeezed IPA. I followed all instructions. Except after 1 week in primary I racked to secondary. blowing CO2 into the keg first to clear the head space. Then when I put it in the mini-keg I cleared the head space as well. filled using a CO2 bottle and not the Pico. I also filtered it as it ran into the Mini-keg. I did not dry hop.
If this works here are a couple pics. This is the very first pour btw.

 

[VagueSkunk]

How did it taste?

 

[Lbarouf]

I brewed and racked my first yesterday, Half Squeezed IPA. I followed all instructions. Except after 1 week in primary I racked to secondary. blowing CO2 into the keg first to clear the head space. Then when I put it in the mini-keg I cleared the head space as well. filled using a CO2 bottle and not the Pico. I also filtered it as it ran into the Mini-keg. I did not dry hop.
If this works here are a couple pics. This is the very first pour btw.

How did you filter?
A review of your brew would be nice.

 

[Mannhec]

From back in my 5 gal brew days - I have https://www.midwestsupplies.com/draft-brewer-beer-brite-filtration-system . it is nice. I have bought a few extra filters.It does work.

 

[jrb03]

I brewed and racked my first yesterday, Half Squeezed IPA. I followed all instructions. Except after 1 week in primary I racked to secondary. blowing CO2 into the keg first to clear the head space. Then when I put it in the mini-keg I cleared the head space as well. filled using a CO2 bottle and not the Pico. I also filtered it as it ran into the Mini-keg. I did not dry hop.
If this works here are a couple pics. This is the very first pour btw.

So you didn't follow all instructions lol. That's the most advanced technique I've seen on a 1 gallon batch. Secondary and filter, wow. Looks great, I guess you turned it into a pale ale without dry hopping it.

 

[Anyhowe]

Half Squeezed IPA. I did not dry hop.
.

Wait, what? Too funny.

 

[Lbarouf]

From back in my 5 gal brew days - I have https://www.midwestsupplies.com/draft-brewer-beer-brite-filtration-system . it is nice. I have bought a few extra filters.It does work.

Nice! I like that it's inline.

 

[Mannhec]

My post did not show. but yeah by not dry hopping, I get to taste the beer with it's base flavors. Extra hops I have found can disguise the true taste of the base beer, I wanted to see what kind of malt flavor it had before trying it as directed... since it was my first and the one that came with the Pico, I decided to not dry hop. I filtered because I wanted as clear a brew as I could get. it's all fun and games to see what we can do.

 

[VagueSkunk]

All of my beers have looked great! They've just tasted like crap

 

[Lbarouf]

True. And no one can tell you what can't be done. After-all, it is YOUR beer. I'd like a bit more flexibility like ability to add ingredients mid stream like ginger, grapefruit peels, soaked up oak chips, etc....

 

[Anyhowe]

True. And no one can tell you what can't be done. After-all, it is YOUR beer. I'd like a bit more flexibility like ability to add ingredients mid stream like ginger, grapefruit peels, soaked up oak chips, etc....

Drink wine coolers...

 

[bobbob911]

True. And no one can tell you what can't be done. After-all, it is YOUR beer. I'd like a bit more flexibility like ability to add ingredients mid stream like ginger, grapefruit peels, soaked up oak chips, etc....

Oak chips would be post ferment during aging - you could certainly do that.

As for the rest - buy a Zymatic

 

[jrb03]

lol y'all are getting way advanced on me. As long as your having fun that's what it's all about! So Mannhec, you still haven't given a report on how your beer turned out, how was it?

 

[Mannhec]

I thought I had mentioned that I think it came out fine at least I liked it. in fact I have a couple/three glasses each evening. I have ordered the Half Squeezed again and it will be next batch, this time I will do the dry hopping to see what it really should taste like. Like jrb03 stated this is more like a pale ale, not an IPA. I have a Buffalo Craft Lager fermenting in the fridge now. This weekend I will bring it out for a diacetyl rest then rack it and let it lager for a few weeks and see how it goes.