PicoBrew Pico users

[harrke]

The edge star doesn't have a built-in delivery system. It is designed for use in one of the mini-keg(our serving keg) kegerators. If you went with edge star by itself, you'd need to get some sort of tap to control the flow out.

If you don't already have a system for mini-kegs, I think the Party star is best. There are also some threads on here where a mini-keg was adapted for use in a ball-lock kegerator.

 

[ooom416354]

The edge star doesn't have a built-in delivery system. It is designed for use in one of the mini-keg(our serving keg) kegerators. If you went with edge star by itself, you'd need to get some sort of tap to control the flow out.

If you don't already have a system for mini-kegs, I think the Party star is best. There are also some threads on here where a mini-keg was adapted for use in a ball-lock kegerator.

Perfect, I will look into the Party Star. By chance do those old Heineken keg tap systems work also?

Something like this? http://www.sunpentown.com/bdmikedi.html

may have answered my own question - is the Edge Star what I need to use the keg tap with the existing serving keg?

 

[VagueSkunk]

I ditched the included mini kegs after 2 uses. Too limiting with pouring options and too hard to clean.
I modified the included regulator with a gas disconnect and bought a couple 1.75 gallon corny kegs.

 

[ooom416354]

I ditched the included mini kegs after 2 uses. Too limiting with pouring options and too hard to clean.
I modified the included regulator with a gas disconnect and bought a couple 1.75 gallon corny kegs.

Wow that seems interesting. I wouldn't mind trying this, would you be able to describe how you did this and what I should buy? Thanks again !

Is this similar to what you did? This looks like the best option I'm thinking

http://www.northernbrewer.com/cannonball-system-mini-regulator

 

[VagueSkunk]

Wow that seems interesting. I wouldn't mind trying this, would you be able to describe how you did this and what I should buy? Thanks again !

Is this similar to what you did? This looks like the best option I'm thinking

http://www.northernbrewer.com/cannonball-system-mini-regulator

I bought one of the torpedo kegs that morebeer.com sells. It's a standard corny keg, just in 1.75 gal capacity (they make other capacities too).
I modified the Pico regulator by removing the barbed fitting using some channel locks and a vise. Then I just took a standard gas disconnect fitting and some teflon tape and voila, new regulator that will work with standard kegs
For the beer side, you can buy a picnic tap and some hose and make it yourself or buy a pre-assembled one.
So now with my 5lb. Co2 tank, I can be carbonating 1 keg, while using the modified regulator to serve from a 2nd.
Now if I could just make a drinkable batch...

 

[harrke]

One day. One day in the future, I'll be able to build up my cash for a real legging system. But for now, I'll use the serving keg with my edge star -like system in a modified refrigerator.

 

[bobbob911]

Hey everyone, finally found this forum as somewhere people are talking about Pico brewing. Just thought I'd share my thoughts/questions so far after two batches:

1) I have had not great experience with my first two batches done using the fast ferment method. The two batches definitely had buttery/green apple off flavors that Picobrew support have suggested to me are the result of an incomplete fermentation. They suggested I try standard fermentation and also to swirl the keg a little about half way through to agitate the yeast and make sure it fully ferments.

2)I also think the fast ferment really short changes any recipe with dry hopping - the 3-4 days that the dry hops sit produced hardly any hop nose. I'm brewing my third batch now and because I can smell it through the standard fermentation airlock I can already tell it has come out significantly better than my first two efforts.

3)I did also experiment with leaving the CO2 regulator in the serving keg. Keep in mind you need to turn the PSI down to under 1PSI - anything higher and the beer still sprays wildly out of the dispenser. Its a workable solution but still not ideal - I have purchased a ball lock regulator and tap and have 2 extra brewing kegs that I will use for serving starting with my next batch.

Some questions I have:

1) Is there real value to disassembling the brewing keg for cleaning? It seems like a real chore to disassemble the ball locks and dip tube. I was thinking that I can run a cleaning cycle right after racking and that should rinse these out sufficiently.

2) I have been fermenting at room temperature 71 degrees, which is well inside the range for fast fermentation but at the high end for standard fermentation. Is there any advantage to lowering that temperature to the middle or low end of the range?

3) I am wondering if people have been chilling their beer for a day or two before force carbonating? (Or even before racking ie. cold crash?) Or if they do this at the same time as per the instructions?

Thanks!

 

[harrke]

Hey everyone, finally found this forum as somewhere people are talking about Pico brewing.

3) I am wondering if people have been chilling their beer for a day or two before force carbonating? (Or even before racking ie. cold crash?) Or if they do this at the same time as per the instructions?

First, thanks for joining the discussion and providing information. I think PicoBrew did a great job in getting the brew right on the Pico, but the following information is lacking a little. For example, the "manual" I got with my Pico talks about fast ferment times for some ales, but is completely silent when it comes to lagers like the Pico Pils. So, I'm going to post my fermentation plans and results here so that we can determine the best practices!

So, third question first: I do cold crash before transferring and force carbing. I figure I want as compact a yeast cake as possible and as little protein haze in the finished beer as I can get. So far, I cold crash for about two days.

 

[harrke]

Perfect, I will look into the Party Star. By chance do those old Heineken keg tap systems work also?

Something like this? http://www.sunpentown.com/bdmikedi.html

I think the cooler in the link uses something like the edge star adapter to serve anything other than the Heineken style. Those have built-in CO2.

 

[ooom416354]

I think the cooler in the link uses something like the edge star adapter to serve anything other than the Heineken style. Those have built-in CO2.

Yup, I think I can either use the Edge Star adapter for those coolers or buy this http://www.northernbrewer.com/cannonball-system-mini-regulator

I am leaning towards the cannonball system as the kegs seem much better made. I think this will fit nicely in the fridge too.

 

[bobbob911]

First, thanks for joining the discussion and providing information. I think PicoBrew did a great job in getting the brew right on the Pico, but the following information is lacking a little. For example, the "manual" I got with my Pico talks about fast ferment times for some ales, but is completely silent when it comes to lagers like the Pico Pils. So, I'm going to post my fermentation plans and results here so that we can determine the best practices!

So, third question first: I do cold crash before transferring and force carbing. I figure I want as compact a yeast cake as possible and as little protein haze in the finished beer as I can get. So far, I cold crash for about two days.

Agreed. There seems to be no information in any of the third party PicoPaks about fermentation times (or if they even support Fast Fermentation).

If you cold crash, how do you rack the beer? Do you hold the racking tube some distance above the bottom of the brewing keg?

 

[jrb03]

Hey everyone, finally found this forum as somewhere people are talking about Pico brewing. Just thought I'd share my thoughts/questions so far after two batches:

1) I have had not great experience with my first two batches done using the fast ferment method. The two batches definitely had buttery/green apple off flavors that Picobrew support have suggested to me are the result of an incomplete fermentation. They suggested I try standard fermentation and also to swirl the keg a little about half way through to agitate the yeast and make sure it fully ferments.

2)I also think the fast ferment really short changes any recipe with dry hopping - the 3-4 days that the dry hops sit produced hardly any hop nose. I'm brewing my third batch now and because I can smell it through the standard fermentation airlock I can already tell it has come out significantly better than my first two efforts.

3)I did also experiment with leaving the CO2 regulator in the serving keg. Keep in mind you need to turn the PSI down to under 1PSI - anything higher and the beer still sprays wildly out of the dispenser. Its a workable solution but still not ideal - I have purchased a ball lock regulator and tap and have 2 extra brewing kegs that I will use for serving starting with my next batch.

Some questions I have:

1) Is there real value to disassembling the brewing keg for cleaning? It seems like a real chore to disassemble the ball locks and dip tube. I was thinking that I can run a cleaning cycle right after racking and that should rinse these out sufficiently.

2) I have been fermenting at room temperature 71 degrees, which is well inside the range for fast fermentation but at the high end for standard fermentation. Is there any advantage to lowering that temperature to the middle or low end of the range?

3) I am wondering if people have been chilling their beer for a day or two before force carbonating? (Or even before racking ie. cold crash?) Or if they do this at the same time as per the instructions?

Thanks!

1. Absolutely. Very important to clean the keg thoroughly after fermentation, the krausen gets way up into the headspace and you don't want any of that gunk around next time. Maybe not so important if your cleaning after serving from the keg, but I still break it down after serving its not that bad. Much easier than cleaning the 5L serving kegs.

2. I would not do standard fermentation over 70', personally I would do fast fermentation unless you can control a steady 65-68'.

3. Yes I cold crash for at least two days before racking, you want to keep as much yeast and trub out of your serving vessel as possible.

 

[jrb03]

Agreed. There seems to be no information in any of the third party PicoPaks about fermentation times (or if they even support Fast Fermentation).

If you cold crash, how do you rack the beer? Do you hold the racking tube some distance above the bottom of the brewing keg?

Agree, they need to edit the manual to be a little clearer. They intend everything to be fast fermenting, so if they sell it, it is. For times I just go 7 days on everything to be safe but they are done in 4-5 days tops. 90% of the marketplace are ales, but be aware a few of the beers sold are lagers which require lower standard and fast fermentation temperatures. There are two versions of the sticker, labeled on the right side ale or lager.

After cold crashing just follow the instructions for racking. Pour off the first bit to a waste container then rack to keg. Explained very well and easy.

 

[Anyhowe]

Hey everyone, finally found this forum as somewhere people are talking about Pico brewing. Just thought I'd share my thoughts/questions so far after two batches:

1) I have had not great experience with my first two batches done using the fast ferment method. The two batches definitely had buttery/green apple off flavors that Picobrew support have suggested to me are the result of an incomplete fermentation. They suggested I try standard fermentation and also to swirl the keg a little about half way through to agitate the yeast and make sure it fully ferments.

2)I also think the fast ferment really short changes any recipe with dry hopping - the 3-4 days that the dry hops sit produced hardly any hop nose. I'm brewing my third batch now and because I can smell it through the standard fermentation airlock I can already tell it has come out significantly better than my first two efforts.

3)I did also experiment with leaving the CO2 regulator in the serving keg. Keep in mind you need to turn the PSI down to under 1PSI - anything higher and the beer still sprays wildly out of the dispenser. Its a workable solution but still not ideal - I have purchased a ball lock regulator and tap and have 2 extra brewing kegs that I will use for serving starting with my next batch.

Some questions I have:

1) Is there real value to disassembling the brewing keg for cleaning? It seems like a real chore to disassemble the ball locks and dip tube. I was thinking that I can run a cleaning cycle right after racking and that should rinse these out sufficiently.

2) I have been fermenting at room temperature 71 degrees, which is well inside the range for fast fermentation but at the high end for standard fermentation. Is there any advantage to lowering that temperature to the middle or low end of the range?

3) I am wondering if people have been chilling their beer for a day or two before force carbonating? (Or even before racking ie. cold crash?) Or if they do this at the same time as per the instructions?

Thanks!

The off taste sounds more like a sanitation issue. The system makes excellent wort from any temp below about 85 degrees. Likely many hear do not understand the benefits or concepts of fermenting under pressure so their temperature concerns about off flavors should be taken with a keg of salt.

Fast fermentation and dry hopping are mutually exclusive. Dry hopping is best done when fermentation is complete.

I hope you have better success in the future. I enjoy mine along side my Z.

 

[bobbob911]

The off taste sounds more like a sanitation issue

.

The problem occurred even on my first batch, with all clean equipment

Dry hopping is best done when fermentation is complete

The instructions indicate to add dry hops after 3 days of fermenting (regardless of fast or slow method) - Do you disagree with this?

 

[jrb03]

Clean and sanitized are not the same thing. Not blaming your problem on sanitation, just saying your new equipment was not sanitized.

I agree fast fermentation is not the problem though. How long were your fermentations before racking?

 

[bobbob911]

I did nothing to the equipment prior to brewing other than run the Initial Clean cycle generated by the Pico using plain water, no cleaners or sanitizers. Was that wrong?

I did use Hydrogen Peroxide as per the instructions to sanitize the serving keg prior to filling.

Both times I fast fermented for 7 days, with the dry hops in for the last 4. It was earlier this year so room temp was closer to 73-74 degrees.

 

[Anyhowe]

.

The problem occurred even on my first batch, with all clean equipment



The instructions indicate to add dry hops after 3 days of fermenting (regardless of fast or slow method) - Do you disagree with this?

One should sanitize all clean equipment.

For the PICO I like to keep it simple. Add the yeast and in 7 days it is done regardless of the temp. Then I dry hop for 5 days. Easy and yummy.

 

[bobbob911]

Easy enough to sanitize the kegs, but does that mean I should sanitize the Pico itself? If so, how? And how often?

Do you use the Fast Fermentation adapter then regardless?

 

[jrb03]

No need to sanitize the pico. It self sanitizes during the boil portion of the brew cycle. You mainly need to worry about sanitizing anything that touches the beer after the brew cycle is over. Serving keg, transfer tubing, keg lid when pitching yeast etc. I can't speak to the effectiveness of hydrogen peroxide, I know the instructions say to use it but I have always used star san, which is what most homebrewers use.

I think the beauty of the fast fermentation adapter is the wide range of temperature it allows you to ferment at. I personally use it every time and don't worry about temperature since I know my house isn't under 60 or above 84. I give all batches at least 7 days then 2 days of cold crashing, then rack and carbonate. I haven't dry hopped yet though.

 

[Anyhowe]

What he said.

I have dry hopped a lot.

 

[bobbob911]

Thanks both. In case of dry hopping would I ferment 7 days, dry hop for 5 days, then cold crash for 2 days?

 

[crane]

1) I have had not great experience with my first two batches done using the fast ferment method. The two batches definitely had buttery/green apple off flavors that Picobrew support have suggested to me are the result of an incomplete fermentation.

Buttery flavors come from diacetyl. This compound is generated by the yeast during fermentation. You can raise fermentation temperature towards the end of fermentation so the yeast are more active. That will give them motivation to clean up the diacetyl. This is commonly referred to as a diacetyl rest.

Green Apple is from Acetaldehyde. This is also produced by the yeast and is normally also cleaned up by the yeast. In this case you need a healthy fermentation for the yeast to complete fermentation. No special temperature changes, just a healthy pitch of happy yeast in well oxygenated wort and good fermentation practices.

The fast ferment idea is not new. I've been fermenting under pressure for a few years now on a larger scale but with controlled pressure and temperature profiles. It does allow for higher fermentation temperatures, but I think it's a little misleading in the people will think they don't need any temperature control. 2 big things that still need to be maintained for any type of fermentation are:

1. no sudden changes in temperature. This will shock the yeast, which can cause them to throw off flavors in the beer and/or cause them to stop working at their normal pace.

2. Decreases in temperature after fermentation begins. Yeast will naturally slow down as most of the sugar gets converted to alcohol. We need to make sure the yeast stay active so they get proper attenuation and so they can clean up undesirable compounds like diacetyl.

At the end of the day the brewer makes wort, the yeast make the beer. No automated wort producing machine will eliminate the need for a brewer to gain yeast whispering skills.

 

[bobbob911]

Thanks. So, would you say its always preferable to bias towards a higher fermentation temperature with the fast fermentation valve in then? Or in the case of the Diacetyl rest you need to start with a lower temperature and only raise it near the end?

Do you agree with giving the wort a swirl a couple of times during the ferment to re-suspend the yeast?

 

[crane]

Thanks. So, would you say its always preferable to bias towards a higher fermentation temperature with the fast fermentation valve in then? Or in the case of the Diacetyl rest you need to start with a lower temperature and only raise it near the end?

Do you agree with giving the wort a swirl a couple of times during the ferment to re-suspend the yeast?

No I am saying you need to pitch the proper amount of healthy yeast into oxygenated wort and use the correct temperature profile for the flavor profile you are trying to go for.

Most of the Ester production occurs at the beginning of fermentation. If you are going for a low Ester flavor profile, then you want to keep Temps lower until you reach peak fermentation, after that you can start letting it rise 5-10F.

If you want lots of esters (like a wheat with a lot of banana character) then you will want higher temperatures throughout.

Pressurized fermentation is supposed to minimize Ester production which would indicate that higher Temps will not produce as much esters. I don't have any experience with pressurized primary fermentation above the 60s. I still follow normal temperature profiles since I already have a fermentation chamber for temp control.

There is no one Cookbook formula for all beers. It depends on the style you are brewing and what flavor characteristics you are trying to get out of the yeast.

Giving the yeast a swirl is not necessary and may not be desirable. There are tons of yeast in suspension for weeks/months after fermentation is complete. If swirling makes a difference then you are not pitching enough healthy yeast in the first place.

 

[Anyhowe]

The folks at PICO DO have experience with fast pressurized fermentation. To the point of fermenting lagers as well as ales at very high temps with NO ester issues.

The PICO is designed to work without temperature controlled fermentation ( it was designed to be simple for the NON brewer). Their beers are all quality tested by the brewery before release as they are clone representations of actual beers. Standard brewing "wisdom" does not relate here.

Brew it up, ferment it on your counter for 7 days. Rack, carbonate and enjoy.

 

[bobbob911]

Right. Crane I appreciate your wisdom and I'm sure its accurate, but its not really applicable for Picobrewing. We don't know what the proper amount of yeast is (have to assume its whats in the kit), and we are not given a temperature profile for the recipe. What we really need are some best practices for *all* recipes (or at least, for all ales and all lagers).

Brew it up, ferment it on your counter for 7 days. Rack, carbonate and enjoy.

So far, sounds to me like Brew it up, ferment it on your counter with fast ferment valve for 7 days, dry hop for 5 days, put in fridge for 2 days, rack, force carbonate @ 30PSI for 36hrs, and enjoy

I would like more opinions though on the optimal time to wait before dry hopping, and how long they should stay on for. Certainly, one of my motivations for Pico was to get ultra-fresh hoppy IPAs, and one of the best characteristics of a fresh IPA is a huge hop nose.

 

[crane]

The folks at PICO DO have experience with fast pressurized fermentation. To the point of fermenting lagers as well as ales at very high temps with NO ester issues.

The PICO is designed to work without temperature controlled fermentation ( it was designed to be simple for the NON brewer). Their beers are all quality tested by the brewery before release as they are clone representations of actual beers. Standard brewing "wisdom" does not relate here.

Brew it up, ferment it on your counter for 7 days. Rack, carbonate and enjoy.

You must have misread my post. I have been using pressurized fermentation for a few years now and do understand it's pros and cons. I just don't have a reason to ferment at elevated temps.

I'm not saying you can't ferment at higher temperatures. I've seen the literature and know the conclusions drawn from it. Yes it will limit ester production. What I am saying is that no matter how you produce the wort, and whether you are using pressurized fermentation or not, you still need to make sure you treat the yeast in a manner that promotes them to do what you want in terms of attenuation and flavor profile.

If it was such a no brainer easy to use product, then why are people complaining about diacetyl and acetaldehyde off flavors in the final product?

Fast pressurized fermentation will make it easier to avoid ester production, but it won't eliminate other fermentation issues like under pitching/unhealthy yeast, large temp swings, or temperature decreases after initial fermentation has started. All of which can attribute to off flavors such as buttery and green apple.

The brewer (or automated wort producing machine) make the wort, the yeast make the beer.

 

[bobbob911]

If it was such a no brainer easy to use product, then why are people complaining about diacetyl and acetaldehyde off flavors in the final product?

As the complainer in question I believe its an easy to use product, not a "no brainer" product. I think there is certainly was an inherent bias by the designers about some things that would be obvious to anyone who has home brewed before, but are not necessarily obvious to a new brewer. I also think the instructions are probably pushing the margins of what is possible in terms of ferment time and temp, vs what is ideal. As such, a minimal learning curve is probably to be expected for complete newbies.

Coming up with some best practices is what I'm hoping to find here, but the context should be based on what a typical Pico user would want. In other words, I don't think a typical Pico user would know what their "desired Ester flavor" should be. They just want to make sure the end result is at least mostly faithful to the original recipe.

 

[bobbob911]

One other thing I just thought about - the 2nd batch I brewed I waited until the wort temp fell into the safe range (but above room temp) on the thermo-sticky and pitched the yeast. Clearly, the wort continued to cool to room temperature and so the temperature was definitely falling during those first hours of fermentation.

 

[jrb03]

Let's please remember this thread is intended for Pico users, mostly who are totally new to homebrewing. I don't want to scare people away with diacetyl rests and ester profiles! The Pico method works, and is dumbed down for beginners. We are pitching an entire packet of US-05 in 1.5 gallons, so a healthy pitch rate is not the issue. I personally pitch half the packet but that is another advanced discussion!

You might be on the right track with your pitching practice. As described earlier you don't want any temp swings after pitching. I wait at least 24 hours before pitching, try that next time. If you gave it 7 days before that should be enough time, but since your dry hopping I would give it 7 days, then dry hop 3-5 days, then rack. The extra time in fermentation can only help.

 

[bobbob911]

Thanks. This batch I am doing I did wait 24 hrs (actually, I cooled in cold water in the sink for 45 minutes to get most of the temp down quickly because I read that its better to get the wort temp down faster? Then I let it rest until the next day to get to a steady room temp before pitching)

One of the other things I wonder about - is it possible to ferment too long before racking? And is it possible to leave the dry hops on too long? I'm certainly willing to err on the side of caution with longer times but I have no idea when (or if) that becomes a bad thing.

 

[nonac75]

I brewed a batch of mosaic and it has been fermenting for 7 days at standard fermenting and a temp of about 69

Bubbling seems to have gotten to almost 5 min per bubble. Am I good to cold crash?

My Pliny has been fast fermenting at 76 degrees for 8 days and still isn't ready so it just seems odd the mosaic would be done sooner?

 

[jrb03]

If your still getting a bubble I would wait another day or two. The Pliny is done at that time and temp, I assume you think it is not done because you are doing the "pressure test". That doesn't work, it is holding carbonation because of how the fast fermentation adapter works, it will release pressure until you make it go flat. But if your more comfortable waiting more time only helps.

 

[nonac75]

If your still getting a bubble I would wait another day or two. The Pliny is done at that time and temp, I assume you think it is not done because you are doing the "pressure test". That doesn't work, it is holding carbonation because of how the fast fermentation adapter works, it will release pressure until you make it go flat. But if your more comfortable waiting more time only helps.

Perfect. Thanks!

 

[jrb03]

Thanks. This batch I am doing I did wait 24 hrs (actually, I cooled in cold water in the sink for 45 minutes to get most of the temp down quickly because I read that its better to get the wort temp down faster? Then I let it rest until the next day to get to a steady room temp before pitching)

One of the other things I wonder about - is it possible to ferment too long before racking? And is it possible to leave the dry hops on too long? I'm certainly willing to err on the side of caution with longer times but I have no idea when (or if) that becomes a bad thing.

Cooling quickly only helps clarity, so if you care about clear beer it is worth the hassle. I don't bother anymore. You can leave the beer fermenting for 3-4 weeks (probably longer) without issue, more time can actually help. I'm not sure about the dry hopping, I'm not a big IPA guy so have never gotten into it, I'll let someone else answer that.

 

[jrb03]

Perfect. Thanks!

I forgot Pliny was a big beer. If you want to double verify it's done, do the pressure test every hour or so. I find it takes about 3-5 pressure releases to make it go flat and no release.

 

[zigzap]

Hi, I'm strongly considering buying a picobrew pico. I was however wondering if cooling the wort overnight instead of as quickly as possible, produces a bad result. Won't cooling overnight strongly increase risk of contamination, or at the very least produce a cloudy result?

 

[harrke]

You can still cool quickly if you want. Once the wort is made the Pico leaves it to you. I've used an ice bath and cooled the wort very quickly. I've also left it out overnight and the beer tastes fine ether way.

 

[VagueSkunk]

What you dont want to do is place your nice keg of hot, fresh wort into your 68* fermentation chamber and leave it overnight. Ask me how I know not do do this again