Phosphoric Acid dilution question

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raysmithtx

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I finally ran out of my diluted (20%) Phosphoric Acid and can't find my notes on how I diluted the 85% I started with. I took a solution of 85% PA and added distilled water until the SG read 1.110 at 62 degrees.

Is this a decent method for diluting the acid?

How close am I to getting the 20% solution I was aiming for?

Thanks.
 
Acid strengths are mass-% meaning that 85% acid contains 85g of acid per 100g of acid solution. If you have a reliable scale available you could take some 85% acid and measure its weight m(concentrate). Then m(acid) = 0.85*m(concentrate)
and then
final weight = m(acid) / (final mass-% / 100)
->you add water until the weight of the solution equals this 'final weight'.

For example you take a bit of 85% acid and weigh, m(concentrate) = 100g. Thus, m(acid) = 0.85*100g = 85g.
final weight = 85g / (20 /100) = 425g
So you add water to your strong acid solution until total weight is 425g.

Your method that takes use of hydrometer may be fine, but I haven't used that.

The safest way to dilute strong acid (produces heat) is to add some water first and then slowly add acid to it so when adding water you should take another vessel and add some cold water first, then the strong acid solution. Be careful when moving around with a bottle of strong acid, it may be dangerous to drop it, acid could get into your eyes and would threaten your vision. It is a good idea to wear gloves and glasses if possible. Flush it away from the skin with lots of cold water.
 
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Add 155.1 mL of 85% Phosphoric acid to about 500 mL distilled water, and then make up (top off) to 1 Liter with distilled water and you will have 1 Liter of 20% phosphoric acid.

The actual specific gravity of 20% phosphoric acid is 1.1134. At a measured 1.110 you should be right close to 20%.

(NOTE: Edited to change 156 mL to read 155.1 mL. If the density of 85% phos acid is 1.685 [as per some sources], then use 155.5 mL, but if the density of 85% phos acid is 1.689 [as per other sources] then use 155.1 mL. Splitting hairs, so this is probably all a moot point...)
 
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Acid strengths are mass-% meaning that 85% acid contains 85g of acid per 100g of acid solution. If you have a reliable scale available you could take some 85% acid and measure its weight m(concentrate). Then m(acid) = 0.85*m(concentrate)
and then
final weight = m(acid) / (final mass-% / 100)
->you add water until the weight of the solution equals this 'final weight'.

For example you take a bit of 85% acid and weigh, m(concentrate) = 100g. Thus, m(acid) = 0.85*100g = 85g.
final weight = 85g / (20 /100) = 425g
So you add water to your strong acid solution until total weight is 425g.

Your method that takes use of hydrometer may be fine, but I haven't used that.

The safest way to dilute strong acid (produces heat) is to add some water first and then slowly add acid to it so when adding water you should take another vessel and add some cold water first, then the strong acid solution. Be careful when moving around with a bottle of strong acid, it may be dangerous to drop it, acid could get into your eyes and would threaten your vision. It is a good idea to wear gloves and glasses if possible. Flush it away from the skin with lots of cold water.


Add 155.1 mL of 85% Phosphoric acid to about 500 mL distilled water, and then make up (top off) to 1 Liter with distilled water and you will have 1 Liter of 20% phosphoric acid.

The actual specific gravity of 20% phosphoric acid is 1.1134. At a measured 1.110 you should be right close to 20%.

(NOTE: Edited to change 156 mL to read 155.1 mL. If the density of 85% phos acid is 1.685 [as per some sources], then use 155.5 mL, but if the density of 85% phos acid is 1.689 [as per other sources] then use 155.1 mL. Splitting hairs, so this is probably all a moot point...)

Thank you both for responding. Very helpful. I now have notes for how to dilute using both weight and volume. Hopefully I can find the note the next time I need it.
 
If i'm going about this correctly, it should require 73.3 mL of 85% phosphoric acid made up to 1 Liter with distilled water to give you a Liter of 10% phosphoric acid.

Therefore, add 73.3 mL of 85% Phosphoric acid to about 500 mL distilled water, and then make up (top off) to 1 Liter with distilled water and you will have 1 Liter of 10% phosphoric acid.

Hopefully A.J. deLange will drop in to set me straight if I'm off base here.
 
85% Phosphoric acid:
density = 1.689
1,000 ml weighs 1,689 grams
85% of 1,689 grams = 1,435.65 grams of phosphoric acid per Liter
molecular weight of phosphoric acid = 97.9952
moles/L = 1435.65/97.9952 = 14.65

10% Phosphoric acid:
density = 1.0532
1,000 ml weighs 1,053.2 grams
10% of 1,053.2 grams = 105.32 grams of phosphoric acid per Liter
moles/L = 105.32/97.9952 = 1.07475

1.07475/14.65 = 0.07336
1,000 x 0.07336 = 73.36 mL

Therefore: 73.4 mL of 85% phosphoric acid made up to 1,000 mL gives you 1 Liter of a 10% solution.

20% Phosphoric acid:
density = 1.1134
1,000 ml weighs 1,113.4 grams
20% of 1,113.4 grams = 222.68 grams of phosphoric acid per Liter
moles/L = 222.68/97.9952 = 2.2724

2.2724/14.65 = 0.15518
1,000 x 0.15518 = 155.18 mL

Therefore: 155.2 mL of 85% phosphoric acid made up to 1,000 mL gives you 1 Liter of a 20% solution.
 
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It appears those density numbers may be specific gravities. For example, the polynomial I use (origin long forgotten) says that the density of 85% phosphoric acid is 1.6856 g/cc. This is 1.6856/.998203 = 1.68863 times heavier than water at 20 °C which is awfully close to the 1.689 number you used. Small difference...
 
It appears those density numbers may be specific gravities. For example, the polynomial I use (origin long forgotten) says that the density of 85% phosphoric acid is 1.6856 g/cc. This is 1.6856/.998203 = 1.68863 times heavier than water at 20 °C which is awfully close to the 1.689 number you used. Small difference...

I'm not a 'science' guy but your post piqued my curiosity about the difference between specific gravity and density. Google was my friend. I'm a little smarter now... I think. Thanks.
 
I'm willing to initially speculate (I.E., guess) that more than 90% of those who dilute down their 85% phosphoric acid to reach other (lower) desired phosphoric acid percentages are going about it incorrectly. My greatest fear is that some distributors may not be doing it correctly either.
 
I'm willing to initially speculate (I.E., guess) that more than 90% of those who dilute down their 85% phosphoric acid to reach other (lower) desired phosphoric acid percentages are going about it incorrectly. My greatest fear is that some distributors may not be doing it correctly either.

Yep. I'm assuming that when I buy 85% acid that it really is 85%.
 
OP diluted to SG 1.110 when he should have diluted to SG 1.112 (he wasn't clear on the distinction between SG and density). Assuming he measured SG perfectly he would have gotten 19.67% instead of 20%. I'd say, though technically he did it incorrectly he got close enough for government work as we say around DC.

The gravimetric method suggested by ESBbrewer in No. 2 is spot on and, if you have a good balance, probably the best way to go.

The implication of No. 3 is that one realizes that a liter of 20% is going to weigh 1110.1 grams and that there are 222.02 grams of phosphoric acid in it. This can be obtained from 222.02/.85 = 261.2 grams of 85% acid which, as it has a density of 1.6856 means that 261.2/1.6856 = 154.96 mL of 85% acid will deliver that much phosphoric. Put that in a 1L volumetric flask and make up to the mark and Bob's your uncle. That post said 155.1 but I think that is sufficiently close to 154.96 that we could call it correct.

In No.6 you confuse SG and density but as the process of dilution essentially involves ratios the missing 0.998203 factor cancels out and again you get very close to the 'right' answer.

So all the methods suggested here are, for all practical purposes, correct. Perhaps the most naive would say that 20:85::1:4.25 so that I could add 3.25 parts water to 1 part 85% acid to get a 20% solution. In fact, a 29% solution would be obtained by doing that but even this result isn't that far off.

I'll also point out that it isn't the percentage strength of the solutions that is so important. It is the normality - the number of protons in a mL of them. When we do pH calculations we wind up, for a given desired mash pH, with a proton deficit number that must be satisfied by adding acid. If we have a proton deficit of, for example, 20 mEq it is trivial to compute the number of mL acid of given strength required to furnish those. It is simply mL = mEq/N where N is the normality. Phosphoric acid at 85% concentration is about 14.9 N, 20% is 2.3 N and 10% 1.1 N to mash pH of 5.5 and these normalities change very little for other mash pH's in the usual range. Thus it would take 20/1.1 = 18.2 mL of 10% acid to cover the 20 mEq deficit.

So even the very naive (or rather, let's say, lazy because the very naive would not know what we are talking about here) could make his dilution by adding 3.25 parts water to 1 part acid, obtain his 29% solution, standardize it against chalk and determine that it is actually 3.5 N. If he writes '3.5 N' on the bottle he is then set to make acid additions to his mash once he calculates the estimated proton deficit.
 
First time poster here. I am unfamiliar with all this SG talk. But i do need to dilute phosphoric acid down to 5%. If i purchased 85% food grade phosphoric acid and used distill water. can yalll supply me with a simple recipe to follow?
 
First time poster here. I am unfamiliar with all this SG talk. But i do need to dilute phosphoric acid down to 5%. If i purchased 85% food grade phosphoric acid and used distill water. can yalll supply me with a simple recipe to follow?

35.72 mL of 85% phosphoric acid made up to 1,000 mL with distilled water will yield one Liter of 5% phosphoric acid. Follow the method seen in post #3 above, and use all safety precautions and PPE (personal protective equipment).
 
35.72 mL of 85% phosphoric acid made up to 1,000 mL with distilled water will yield one Liter of 5% phosphoric acid. Follow the method seen in post #3 above, and use all safety precautions and PPE (personal protective equipment).

Is it fair to say that half of 35.72 mL will result in 2.5% Phosphoric acid?
 
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OK, non-linear regression with a fit confidence level of R_squared = 0.99999610966088 indicates that the density of 2.5% phosphoric acid is 1.011885, so 17.62 mL of 85% phosphoric acid made up to 1 Liter with distilled water will equal 2.5% phosphoric acid.

1) 17.62 mL x 1.689 g/mL x 85% /100 = 25.296153 grams of pure phosphoric acid.

2) 1,000 mL x 1.011885 g/mL = 1,011.885 grams of blended acid and water.

25.296153 grams / 1,011.885 grams x 100 = 2.499904% phosphoric acid by weight.
 
Here is the regression formula:

Density of Phosphoric Acid = 0.99846+0.00533428571428571*x+0.0000142857142857143*x^2

Where x = % Phosphoric Acid (valid only between 1% and 5%)
 
will the resulting 5% phosphoric acid be equivalent to a 5% vinegar? or slightly stronger than lemon juice. I am trying to batch a beer based drink similar to coca cola. Coca cola has phosphoric acid in it to create the refreshing quality (same as lemon juice would). so ultimately im trying to dilute the phosphoric acid so it's easy and safe to use like vinegar or lemon juice in a drink. Thoughts?
 
will the resulting 5% phosphoric acid be equivalent to a 5% vinegar? or slightly stronger than lemon juice. I am trying to batch a beer based drink similar to coca cola. Coca cola has phosphoric acid in it to create the refreshing quality (same as lemon juice would). so ultimately im trying to dilute the phosphoric acid so it's easy and safe to use like vinegar or lemon juice in a drink. Thoughts?

At any "weight percentage equivalence" level Phosphoric Acid is leagues more acidic than either Citric or Acetic acid. I'm not going to speculate here as to how one might find equivalence (or if such is even possible or safe), but a casual glance at the first dissociation Ka's and pKa's of each indicates that Phosphoric Acid is at least a magnitude of 10 stronger than Citric Acid and a magnitude of 100 stronger than Acetic Acid on the basis of its willingness to freely liberate H+ ions alone. What you are attempting seems both highly dangerous and ill-advised to me.
 
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At any "weight percentage equivalence" level Phosphoric Acid is far more acidic than either Citric or Acetic acid. I'm not going to speculate here as to how one might find equivalence (or if such is even possible or safe), but a casual glance at the first dissociation Ka's and pKa's of each indicates that Phosphoric Acid is at least a magnitude of 10 stronger than Citric Acid and a magnitude of 100 stronger than Acetic Acid on the basis of its willingness to freely liberate H+ ions alone. What you are attempting seems both highly dangerous and ill-advised to me.

i hear you. check out this product : https://shop.artofdrink.com/product/acid-phosphate/ it is diluted phosphoric acid with added salts and minerals. there has gotta be a way to dilute this ourselves safely. If its 10 times stronger than citric acid than i guess i need closer to 0.5% phosphoric acid per L . So would that be 3.572 mL made whole with distilled water to a L. ?
 
Magnitudes don't work that way at all. Something that is a magnitude of 10 stronger than something else can legitimately be anywhere from 10 to 99 times stronger. And at a magnitude of 100 it can legitimately be anywhere from 100 to 999 times stronger. And there are multiple additional factors that you are not considering besides merely magnitude. It appears that you have no clue as to what you are contemplating, and as such you are potentially a grave danger to both yourself and others.
 
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