Phenolic in consecutive batches

[thoughtsonhops]

So I brewed a "kit" (hopped extract and some DME, and I think a White labs Belgian yeast, not sure tho) it was a Belgian wheat or something, it was about a year ago. It had some phenolic like taste but it was expected. Months late but the next batch, I had a brew party (drinking involved) and brewed a special bitter. Still had the off flavor, but this time not expected for the style. Just bottled a stout that was next in sequence and tasted it, had the same phenolic taste. The stout, started off great, very active fermentation (5 gal batch w/ kruesen flowing out my 6 gal carboy). The gravity got down to 1015, but I wasn't able to bottle or rack yet. checked it later and gravity rose to 1020. So here's what I'm thinking and I'll let you guys chime in also.

- my sanitation is lax (especially during the brew party).

- There is bacteria in my equipment (I'm doubting this).

- I've let the brew sit on the yeast cake for too long (this is my best guess).

I've just racked a CDA into secondary for dry hopping so let's hope I broke the chain of bad brews.

TIA

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

There's a lot of different issues that could be causing this flavor. First off, when you say phenolic...what kind of flavors/aromas are you getting?

What kind of sanitizer are you using?

I'm going to assuming that you made a bad hydrometer reading with the stout. Gravity doesn't go up unless you add something.

 

[Nateo]

Are you using distilled or RO water? Chloramines in tap water could cause phenols. If you're fermenting over 65*, it could just be that you're fermenting too hot. I doubt letting it sit on the yeast cake was the issue, unless you're underpitching or otherwise stressing the yeast beforehand.

It may or may not be sanitation. If it's a combination of phenols and gushing beer, then that's something I'd look at.

 

[tesilential]

So I brewed a "kit" (hopped extract and some DME, and I think a White labs Belgian yeast, not sure tho) it was a Belgian wheat or something, it was about a year ago. It had some phenolic like taste but it was expected. Months late but the next batch, I had a brew party (drinking involved) and brewed a special bitter. Still had the off flavor, but this time not expected for the style. Just bottled a stout that was next in sequence and tasted it, had the same phenolic taste. The stout, started off great, very active fermentation (5 gal batch w/ kruesen flowing out my 6 gal carboy). The gravity got down to 1015, but I wasn't able to bottle or rack yet. checked it later and gravity rose to 1020. So here's what I'm thinking and I'll let you guys chime in also.

- my sanitation is lax (especially during the brew party).

- There is bacteria in my equipment (I'm doubting this).

- I've let the brew sit on the yeast cake for too long (this is my best guess).

I've just racked a CDA into secondary for dry hopping so let's hope I broke the chain of bad brews.

TIA

Most importantly, what temperature did you ferment at?

 

[thoughtsonhops]

Thanks everyone. I'm using bottled spring water. I'm fermenting from 68-70. Aside from the initial vigorous fermentation of the stout, I haven't had any gushing. The stout is bottled now and my CDA is dry hopping. I hope the CDA turns out, I don't have huge hopes for the stout.

 

[ayoungrad]

Ambient 68-70?

For ales, the wort temp goes up 3-10 degrees during active fermentation.

 

[beerkrump]

When you say "Phenolic", is it medicinal, plasticy, tarry??? Something else?

How long was the beer on the cake?

 

[thoughtsonhops]

68-70 on the stick on thermometer. I did not know the temp climbs that much. And yeah, a plasticy clove like taste.

 

[Nateo]

In any case, you should really be fermenting lower. 60*-ish. Especially for non-Belgian styles, that will make your beer taste a lot better.

 

[AmandaK]

I agree with everything said here...

But I'm going to lay my bets on sanitation. Whether it be lax sanitation or using a chlorine-based sanitizer (bleach) and not rinsing it properly (e.g. not rinsing with boiled & still hot water).

What are your procedures there??

 

[Brewpastor]

What kind of pitching rate/lag time are you dealing with?

 

[bob1852]

I agree with everything said here...

But I'm going to lay my bets on sanitation. Whether it be lax sanitation or using a chlorine-based sanitizer (bleach) and not rinsing it properly (e.g. not rinsing with boiled & still hot water).

What are your procedures there??

Yes, what are your sanitation proceedures?

Also - I've heard and read somewhere (can't recall), that using iodine based sanitizers (iodophor, etc.) at way higher than the concentration on the label can cause phenolic flavors...

Anyone else hear/read this?

 

[thoughtsonhops]

I'm using an iodine sanitizer from LHBS. Star-San or five star. Something like that. I keep my plastic bucket with 5 gal of solution nearby. Everything spends some time in there right before coming in contact with the wort. The carboy is rinsed with same sanitizer also. I use bleach for bottles in the sink but after the bleach I rinse with hot water twice and then fill up with 5 gal of sanitizer taken from my priming bucket or carboy.

Fermenting usually starts 24 hours, normally around 10 hours from pitching.

 

[bob1852]

how much concentrated sanitizer are you using per what volume of water?

 

[thoughtsonhops]

A bit over one cap full per 5 gal. Looks like about one ounce. I always do 5 gallons.

 

[bob1852]

Which sanitizer is it? (Star San isn't an iodine sanitizer)

And what does the label say for correct dosage?

 

[Saccharomyces]

"Sight unseen", this sounds like infection. If you are really stuck, PM me and you can send me a bottle -- I've helped several folks diagnose their problems since I have a lot of experience in off flavors.

 

[bob1852]

"Sight unseen", this sounds like infection. If you are really stuck, PM me and you can send me a bottle -- I've helped several folks diagnose their problems since I have a lot of experience in off flavors.

Sacc - have you ever heard of too much iodophor causing phenolic flavors? The reason I ask is that I had a couple bottles in a comp report huge phenols. And I know I used WAY too much iodophor when sanitizining the bottles (long story - but try mixing iodophor by "color" with really cold water). I made a mental note that the mix was way too high of a ratio....

Just wondering....

And maybe iodophor releases chloramines into chlorine if you use too much in the sanitizing water?

 

[thoughtsonhops]

I've been using Five Star IO Sanitzer. I just ran out and bought BTF. They call for 1oz.

Thanks for the offer, Sacc. I gave away the rest of the first infected batch. And the stout was just bottled a couple days ago. I've taken it to a local pro brewer and certified beer judge. I'm just hoping to find where/when its getting infected.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Thanks for the offer, Sacc. I gave away the rest of the first infected batch. And the stout was just bottled a couple days ago. I've taken it to a local pro brewer and certified beer judge. I'm just hoping to find where/when its getting infected.

Good call. Hopefully they have experience in off flavors as well. It's frustrating, I know, but with help you will get to the bottom of this!

 

[thoughtsonhops]

I'll just keep on brewing. That's half the fun.