pH Acid-Adjustment Issue: Factory Mislabeled Bottles?

[Ratdog]

Has anyone ever come across a mislabled bottle?

I wrecked a a beer that I've brewed dozens of time before. "Wrecked" means the mash was a mortar-like consistency, it lautered poorly but successfully, efficiency was poor but not that bad, the beer fermented, and the resulting beer finished at ~1.5% ABV when it should have been ~5.5%. Assuming I just made a dumb mistake when measuring volumes, I then similarly wrecked another beer.

I am new to acid-adjusting brewing water and I have put too much stock in my brewing water calculators. I was not in the habit of pH testing my acid-adjusted strike water and I did not for these two beers.

I am flabbergasted by this, so I did an experiment. My experiment makes me think I received a couple mislabeled bottles.

Procedure: Measure 1 gallon water from my usual source. I then added ~6.5ml of 10% phosphoric to it, which both Bru'n Water and Brewers Friend calculators indicate should yield a pH of 6. I then mixed the phosphoric in. The resulting acid-adjusted water was then measured with a calibrated Milwaukee PH56 meter which has some measurement innacuracy but is in the ballpark. I performed the experiement for the two kinds of 10% phosphoric acid that I have and got vastly different outcomes. I repeated the experiment and it yielded the same results.

The results were this. When using the acid that was involved with my wrecked beers, the resulting pH readings were ~2.3 and ~2.5. When using the acid that didn't wreck my beer, the resulting pH was ~5.7 both times.

Am I missing something? Thank you for your feedback!

 

[MaxStout]

Maybe the bottle contains 85% phosphoric, not 10%?

 

[day_trippr]

That would be my guess as well. Fwiw, 10% PA pours like water while 85% PA pours with some viscosity....

Cheers!

 

[Ratdog]

That would be my guess as well. Fwiw, 10% PA pours like water while 85% PA pours with some viscosity....

Cheers!

Great thinking. I've haven't used 85% PA before. The one that gave me trouble poured more like maple syrup. The one that worked as it should have was like water. Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[day_trippr]

I would put whichever company mislabeled their product on mega-blast for that

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

Not to mention the potential safety hazard. While 10% phosphoric is nothing to trifle with, 85% is nasty. It leaves burn marks in wood and some other surfaces. I'd hate to get it on my skin.

Be careful with that stuff. Gloves and eye protection.

 

[Ratdog]

Not to mention the potential safety hazard. While 10% phosphoric is nothing to trifle with, 85% is nasty. It leaves burn marks in wood and some other surfaces. I'd hate to get it on my skin.

Be careful with that stuff. Gloves and eye protection.

Thanks for the tips. I'll be doing all that and also being sure to measuring the water's pH before/after acid adjustments to make sure everything is as it should be. I could have avoided having the beers not turn out by doing that check.

 

[Bobby_M]

Yup, as a vendor, I know for a fact that you have super strong concentrate. That was an LD error. I had a customer that ruined two batches with the same issue and I got LD to make them whole by covering my ingredient costs. I also gave that customer a $25 GC due to the wasted brew day.

 

[Ratdog]

Yup, as a vendor, I know for a fact that you have super strong concentrate. That was an LD error. I had a customer that ruined two batches with the same issue and I got LD to make them whole by covering my ingredient costs. I also gave that customer a $25 GC due to the wasted brew day.

Thanks Bobby. You correctly picked which bottle was giving me trouble. I'm not glad it's happened to others, but I'm glad it's not just me repeating the same stupid mistakes. My wife has a chemistry minor and believed it was a mislabel based on my experiment, but couldn't grasp how a chemical factory could send something so off out the door.

Would you suggest I just get rid of the concentrate or is there a way for me to confirm what it is and adjust how I use it? PA is cheap enough that I'm inclined to just dispose of it.

 

[Bobby_M]

I would get rid of it and figure out where you bought it. Make sure they know about it.

 

[day_trippr]

Wait - why get rid of the bottle of presumably 85% PA? I buy 85% and dilute down to 25% with distilled water and use that in my brewing (I can use a smaller container and smaller syringes than using 10%)...

I'd still send some hate mail to LD Carlson though

Cheers!

 

[DuncB]

@Bobby_M
I remember that long thread but can't track it down. Most interesting.

Worth remembering that small acid adjustments on plain water will have a marked effect on the pH as there are no buffers.

 

[day_trippr]

btw, one can determine the percentage of PA in solution by using a hydrometer.
85% would be 1.689
25% would be 1.146
10% would be 1.053

https://wissen.science-and-fun.de/chemistry/chemistry/density-tables/density-of-phosphoric-acid/

Cheers!

 

[bruce_the_loon]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/bag-will-not-drain-why.693088/

Original thread Bobby_M mentioned

 

[Broothru]

I would get rid of it and figure out where you bought it. Make sure they know about it.

I’d also do some serious buffering of the stuff before dumping/discarding, especially if you’re on a home septic system. Might be an effective defoliant for some nuisance vegetation around your yard, however.

 

[Ratdog]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/bag-will-not-drain-why.693088/

Original thread Bobby_M mentioned

Thank you for providing this link. Everything in there is what I was experiencing, except the beers I wrecked were 5.5 gallon batches of American Blonde made with 2 row, vienna, and C10.

@Bobby_M really nailed this down in that string. Bobby - thanks for all you did to run this down, although it's sad that these bottles are still on the loose in 2023 when I bought mine.

I guess my stance on this is this. If I can't trust that the bottle labeled "Phosphoric Acid 10% Solution" is actually a 10% solution, why should I trust that it is actually Phosphoric Acid. I can dilute it down and use it, but if those beers turn out poorly, I've just wasted a lot more time and energy because I assumed something to be true about a product with demonstrated quality control issues.

I don't know which LHBS I purchased these from so I contacted LD. If they provide any feedback I'll share it.

 

[Bobby_M]

I guess my stance on this is this.

That's where I was on it also. I mean, sure, 99% chance that it was undiluted phosphoric. LD should just ship you a replacement along with some grain as an apology since it ruined your batch.

 

[day_trippr]

If you have a hydrometer you could test it to see if it at least matches up with SG expectation...

Cheers!

 

[Ratdog]

Thanks for linking to the table of expected gravities and the fun test. Unfortunately my hydrometer only goes to 1.17 and the acid is off the meter. Assuming the gravities after the graduations end are linear (I think this is wrong because the bulb protrudes from the acid) this would indicate1.23 (the picture is linked below). 1.23 per that table is between 35% and 40%.

 

[day_trippr]

Hah! I didn't even think about how thick a liquid the hydro's we use could handle!
Dilution is the solution though: cut it down to bring it into scope and do the math. Or maybe the other way around

Cheers!

 

[Peebee]

Wonderful! This thread is all swinging towards my very favorite subject.

You don't won't cwappy fragile glass "hydrometers" ... you need a proper tool for the job of measuring "specific gravity" ... one Archimedes could understand: "Pyknom... (shut him up quick ... he'll go on for hours about flippin' pyknometers ...)

 

[Ratdog]

Wow, I never knew. This looks like a cool brewing toy that people might want on their wish list.

A case of these is only $492.
DWK Life Sciences Kimble™ KIMAX™ Pycnometer Bottle

If you like, please go on. Also, does the shape of the pycnometer have a bearing over it's effectiveness or practical usage? The linked pycnometer looks like an April fools gift that I would give someone in my homebrew club.

 

[Peebee]

Wow, I never knew. This looks like a cool brewing toy that people might want on their wish list.

A case of these is only $492.
DWK Life Sciences Kimble™ KIMAX™ Pycnometer Bottle

If you like, please go on. Also, does the shape of the pycnometer have a bearing over it's effectiveness or practical usage? The linked pycnometer looks like an April fools gift that I would give someone in my homebrew club.

$492! You're right, I think it must be an April fool joke! $4.92 seems more likely (for a plain 25ml bottle ... you don't need all those easy to break appendages for thermometers and things). But you're in luck, I started >this thread< a while ago. Shape is immaterial, but the hole in the stopper is very useful!

I use pyknometers because of a sight defect (saccadic intrusions) which makes it very difficult to see closely packed parallel lines (like the scales on a hydrometer). So, I have to make do with a vastly superior tool! You do need some expensive weighing scales though ($50-100). The link includes a small spreadsheet to make the calculations easy.

 

[Peebee]

Ahh, they do them at more reasonable prices! Eisco™ Glass Calibrated Pycnometer. But still near $20 for a 10ml bottle. 25ml is the smallest to use unless you want to spend a fortune on 3-4 DP weighing scales. You can get reliable 2 DP electronic scales that do the job. You can get unreliable 2 DP scales for about $20 too ... they are no use at all! Your Web link pictures these (below) but doesn't appear to sell them? Snazzy "calibrated" ones, but you don't need "calibrated" either (it doesn't mean what you might think!). Borosilicate glass is nice to have (for dimensional stability, not for measuring boiling hot samples!). You can also see the hole in the stoppers in this picture:

Good job this is your thread (@Ratdog)! I did say I'd go on and on about them.

 

[Ratdog]

Thanks @Peebee! That was the case price, so who knows if it was for 10, 100, or 1000 . Thanks for sharing the link and providing the additional information. That's a pretty good price point for a tool that could come in handy!

 

[MaxStout]

Great suggestion! Didn't know about those.

Just added a 100ml pycnometer to my Amazon list for next order. I usually draw ~100ml sample for the hydrometer cylinder anyway, so might as well measure it more accurately. I suppose I could use the pycnometer to calibrate my hydrometers. I have several and they vary a little bit from one another.

 

[day_trippr]

Looks like one pita tool to use. I'll stick with refracts

 

[Peebee]

... so who knows if it was for 10, 100, or 1000

Dig a bit deeper and it does tell you. It won't be what you want to hear (none of those numbers your list - their mistake I'd hope?)!

Looks like one pita tool to use. I'll stick with refracts

I won't argue! Refracts are blindingly easy. But their tiny sample requirement is both a huge advantage, and (at times) a curse. @MaxStout's approach is a good one: Get a big pyknometer bottle (even more precise and covers up little "errors" weighing) and use it to calibrate the "more convenient" tools. You can't question results from a pyknometer, they measure the basic elements of SG (weight and volume directly - note temperature isn't one of them!). Pyknometers are no more a PITA to use than hydrometers (a tiny bit more expensive perhaps).

Oscillating U-tubes ("EasyDens" is a cheap one of them) is the ultimate in ease of use and accuracy ... but lots and lots of money!

I still use refractometers - great for speed of use. Electronic hydrometers (Tilts) for "on-the-run" measurements (glass hydrometers can't last five minutes in my hands). But all bow to the OG/FG measurements made with a pyknometer!

The very best solution (but escapes me now-a-days) is a combination of: Experience and Confidence; i.e. no measuring tools at-all



(Cor! It's not 'arf high sitting on this preaching pedestal ... can someone give me a hand down please?).

 

[DuncB]

@Peebee
You're standing on the pile of dirt you dug from the hole. Climb down yourself but be careful not to fall in the hole!
I just can't see my need for a further measuring device or another decimal point on my accucacy. My 1972 hydrometer and the electronic refractometer correlate each other.
But keep banging the drum.

 

[Peebee]

... I just can't see my need for a further measuring device or another decimal point on my accucacy. ...

That's fine! But do remember that my "preaching" was in response to invitation by the author of this thread (@Ratdog).

I have to watch my step here after getting banned from the UK THBF forum ... and it was ME reporting the off-subject and abusive behaviour on that forum (Resulted in getting the site's administrator involved ... but not on my side!).

1972 hydrometer? I'd guess that's calibrated for 60°F not 20°C? Of course, on this (USA) site most people will use 60°F calibrated hydrometers? But it only makes about one point of SG difference compared with a 20°C one (SG point = 0.001 that is ... three decimal-places like we're used to!).

But mustn't get nudged further off-subject: When I've got a moment, I want to demonstrate getting the density of my 81% Phosphoric Acid (i.e. I've no idea if it really is 81%) as per @day_trippr's earlier post. Using a pyknometer of course, and in "mg/L", not "SG" ... got to "keep banging the drum"! If I get about to it, that 80+% Phosphoric Acid is hazardous and has already bored holes into my epoxy protected kitchen work surfaces! We (UKers) can't buy such acid anymore ... throwing it at innocent women became a "thing to do" amongst some groups in society.


[EDIT: 81% not 88% Phosphoric Acid! A "senior moment" I reckon (... What you mean, you've always been like that ... shut it you ...). Corrected!]