Perpetual primary

[marbach1987]

Is there any reason why if I was doing the same wine again and again that I could just remove all but some out of fermenter ( I use open fermentation) then add more juice and sugar and start the process over again. Specifically I'm using welches concord. Works for sourdough so I don't see why the same principle wouldn't apply.

Thanks

 

[DBhomebrew]

As long as your sanitation is on point.

 

[IslandLizard]

As long as your sanitation is on point.

That^ and you remove excess yeast, plus add fresh nutrients.

 

[marbach1987]

Thanks, that's why I figured it would be important to rack to carboy before active fermentation was complete so the (CO2 barrier) would protect it from contamination. I'm really curious about how that will speed up fermentation because you already have an active culture, also how the yeast would mutate over time to acclimate to it's environment.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm really curious about how that will speed up fermentation

You'll find out when you do it.
Don't forget to sulfite the new must/juice and let it sit for 24 hours before adding to your ready-to-go yeast culture.

 

[madscientist451]

That^ and you remove excess yeast, plus add fresh nutrients.

I've done it with cider many times when I'm making early, middle and late season batches. I just leave all the old slurry in there, dump in more apple juice. The extra yeast doesn't seem to hurt anything, haven't had issues, and the yeast really kicks off great on the second and third runs. Sometimes I'll divide the slurry if I have enough juice for two carboys. Don't see why it wouldn't work with wine. I never add nutrients to wine and cider, but I do use them with mead, but if adding nutrients works for you, go for it. I quit adding sulfites to the pre-fermentation must years ago, but I do add them at racking.

 

[bernardsmith]

What about the problem of autolysis. After a (long) while the dead yeast cells at the bottom are likely to break apart and release their guts to the outside. Those flavors are not often desired. Typically we rack off the yeast and cells that flocculate will end up on the floor of the fermenter. But in this model (not quite a solera) you are always fermenting atop the old and decrepit yeast. Why is that not a problem?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Dead yeast cells in a quiet environment where the live cells are 'sleeping' is not the same as dead yeast cells in an actively fermenting environment where the live cells are doing their lively thing. In the former, the dead stuff just sits there exuding grossness. In the latter, the dead stuff is yeast nutrient. Some companies sell the stuff.

 

[madscientist451]

. But in this model (not quite a solera) you are always fermenting atop the old and decrepit yeast. Why is that not a problem?

I suppose its only a problem if you can detect an off flavor from the dead yeast. How long does it take to notice a difference?
Some pro wine and cider makers age "on the lees" for many years. The following article explains the process somewhat but the big takeaway is the quote: "The autolytic characteristics bloom slowly over time."
https://growlermag.com/autolysis-when-yeast-die-for-the-wine-drinkers-pleasure/

 

[marbach1987]

Wanted to give update, I just started third batch of same recipe where I siphoned off all but quart or so of wine and sediment then put in my juice and sugar. I was amazed within 4 hours it was actively fermenting. One thing I've noticed in open fermentation is when it's most active the bubbles are really big and they get smaller more numerous as it slows. In 7 days I had the same hydrometer reading that it took 14 days to accomplish in first batch. I've now started third batch and I'm curious if it will ferment even faster.

 

[marbach1987]

Wanted to give update, I just started third batch of same recipe where I siphoned off all but quart or so of wine and sediment then put in my juice and sugar. I was amazed within 4 hours it was actively fermenting. One thing I've noticed in open fermentation is when it's most active the bubbles are really big and they get smaller more numerous as it slows. In 7 days I had the same hydrometer reading that it took 14 days to accomplish in first batch. I've now started third batch and I'm curious if it will ferment even faster.

So it's been 11 days on my 3rd batch and I checked final gravity this morning. I was dumbfounded. It bottomed out at .990 probably before today too. That means I can actually bottle wine at 10 11 days and get little sediment I would imagine if siphon off top. What's more is this winter it's only 65 in the house which means in the warmer months it could ferment even faster. I'm not an expert in wine tasting but you can really taste the tannins but It doesn't taste like rubbing alcohol really nice rounded taste. Og was 12 percent by the way but because I didn't dissolve sugar fist I just dumped it in with juice it may be higher next time I'll dissolve it to see how og changes.