Perlick Flow Control v Kegland Disconnects v Nukatap

[grampamark]

You need to have two regulators to just get two different levels of carbonation. That is a given but your pouring is not affected by the regulator. That is line length, inner diameter of tubing and/or flow control.

Which is balancing the system. This discussion is going around in circles. As Day Trippr said, set each faucet (regulator, line length, etc.) for the desired carb level.

 

[Broken Crow]

When I got my first kegerator, it was a stock, single sankey commercial unit which means; All the lines and fittings are garbage..3/8" vinyl tubing, sankey coupler, PC-brass shank and tap, so I replaced them and hit Aliexpress and OBK for a 3-tap tower to go from single-sankey to 3 cornys. To set it up, I followed a thread on here which I can't find now (I think it was actually a link provided by @day_trippr ) on line-balancing and having only one regulator at the time, I based my line length on the most vol.'s I felt I would likely load it with... To hedge my bets and "Have and not need, rather than need and not have" I bought a single Nukatap FC.... It's still sitting unused as a placeholder. I'm hoping to have a set of secondary regulators before I ever run into a 'too-low line resistance' situation. Evabarrier doesn't take up a lot of space, so my lines are a bit longer than than need to be for most of my brews, and since it sounds like you have the space and have or are getting secondary regs, you should be able to balance your system with what you already have.
I'm not really sure why this thread looks like an argument.

 

[Bassman2003]

I'm not really sure why this thread looks like an argument.

It is the usual mixing of ideas and opinions.
1) Balancing a keg system is crucial.
2) It is a PITA to change lines from disconnects to shanks.
3) Different beer style/carbonation levels require more or less restriction.
4) Balancing only works when the CO2 volumes between brews stay consistent.
5) Flow control allows one to keep existing lines and regulators in place and only adjust restriction.
6) The jury is out on which is better - disconnect control or tap control. Each can do a fine job.

The only place where I see this thread going sideways is folks telling someone who wants flow control to just balance their system. They are kind of different things (#5). Maybe call it Dynamic Balancing?

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Back in the Nixon era, "balancing" just meant carbonation and line length. Now flow control devices are part of it.

 

[Broken Crow]

It is the usual mixing of ideas and opinions.
1) Balancing a keg system is crucial.
2) It is a PITA to change lines from disconnects to shanks.
3) Different beer style/carbonation levels require more or less restriction.
4) Balancing only works when the CO2 volumes between brews stay consistent.
5) Flow control allows one to keep existing lines and regulators in place and only adjust restriction.
6) The jury is out on which is better - disconnect control or tap control. Each can do a fine job.

The only place where I see this thread going sideways is folks telling someone who wants flow control to just balance their system. They are kind of different things (#5). Maybe call it Dynamic Balancing?

Thank You! I have a limited working-memory so I have to function with samller datasets, your point form there is perfect..
Can I extrapolate from that: 'Install a balanced system for the beers you expect to serve, but have FC components on hand in case you decide to serve a keg outside that range'?

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Don't ruin a good thread with common sense.

 

[Broken Crow]

Back in the Nixon era, "balancing" just meant carbonation and line length. Now flow control devices are part of it.

It really isn't an archaism, it still is standard practice in the setting these parts are designed for. I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the world but here, most restaurants and bars don't own the dipsensing equipment, or at least that's how it's been for most of my life... The distributer installs their own taps, lines, etc. and balances the system for the specific brew the are selling. FC parts were the solution to the 'problem' of serving a beer outside the parameters the system was designed for.
There are plenty of folk on here, especially those who like to tote small kegs from place to place, for whom short connections are mandatory and a flow control disconnect, shank or faucet is a must and they get it to work perfectly, but there are also frequent posts by those who have endless problems with it.
Just my opinion, but your best bet, since you're still putting it together, would be to balance it from the outset, and if you have a higher carnbed beer that presents a problem, then try out the solutions. If the cash isn't a big deal, then keep some FC disconnects and your FC taps on hand, so if you do run into a foaming issue, you're ready to deal with if you need to.

 

[pvpeacock]

Does anyone here have any experience with cars that have automatic transmissions? I know manual transmissions work great and everything, but I am considering one of those new fangled automatic transmission cars anyway.

 

[day_trippr]

 

[Bassman2003]

Thank You! I have a limited working-memory so I have to function with samller datasets, your point form there is perfect..
Can I extrapolate from that: 'Install a balanced system for the beers you expect to serve, but have FC components on hand in case you decide to serve a keg outside that range'?

Yes. Balancing is just matching the level of carbonation with a length of beer line at a stable temperature that results in the desired pour speed. I have spent years without flow control, so it is not needed. But it is nice if you brew a lot of different styles.

 

[Yesfan]

1970s thinking = keeping it simple.


Get some of the 4mm ID beer line from EVA barrier and you don't have to worry about having long lines for balancing and/or using flow controls. Just my opinion, but that's what I would go with. If you need to adjust for higher/lower carbed beers, use secondary regulators or keep certain line lengths for specific styles.

As for the taps, I've had Perlicks, Intertaps, and Nukatap. The kegerator I have now has Intertaps, but I'm going to replace them with Nukataps eventually. I think the Nukataps open/close a lot smoother than the Intertaps. Some of the Intertaps feel like they "grind" when they open and close. Some don't.

I like the Perlicks, but had some leaking issues with some of them. The biggest reason for me to go with the Intertaps/Nuka is the interchangable tips. I used to have the Perlick 425s that had this feature and I loved that. My cousin has the newer Perlick 630(?) and has had no issues whatsoever that I know of. They are a very solid tap.

 

[UdonPete]

I am not prepared to do that, so flow control + EVA Barrier is the ticket.

Agree, works perfectly for me

 

[beren]

Does anyone here have any experience with cars that have automatic transmissions? I know manual transmissions work great and everything, but I am considering one of those new fangled automatic transmission cars anyway.

Yeah they are junk. Manual 4eva

 

[KegLand]

I'm going to try the plastic disconnects and see what they do. Thanks for the info.

I personally prefer the duotight plastic to the stainless steel ones. We still sell a lot of stainless steel ones and we are happy to make more margin in the stainless product for those customers who want to spend more but I personally I think the plastic work better for a few reasons:

1. The plastic ones are easier to take apart without the need for tools. So if you get hops blocked in the poppet you can take them apart quickly.
2. The plastic ones have an overmolded poppet where we Santoprene rubber is overmoulded onto the poppet meaning it cant come off even under high pressures which are an issue with the conventional stainless poppets. This is also the reason why the plastic disconnects can handle higher pressures.
3. We use wedge seal in the cap so when you to take the disconnects apart for cleaning the o-rings do not fall out and get lost as no o-rings are used in the design.
4. They are more compact.
5. They are substantially cheaper.
6. The beer line pushes directly into the ball lock disconnect and you have the option of 1/4" OD, 5/16" OD or 3/8" OD lines so irrespective of which way you go you have less fittings to worry about.

I know a lot of customers automatically think "Stainless = Best" but it's not the case with disconnects in my opinion.

Also Bassman2003 mentioned he uses the buna-N o-rings on the posts. I have to say that this is my least favorite compound. Buta-N o-rings perish relatively easily especially if they are exposed to the sun. They have very poor "spring" properties meaning when the o-rings squashes flat it takes a long time to return to the original shape. Specifically for post o-rings I perfer the EPDM compound or alternatively Silicone. Silicone has the best "spring" properties but it does have worse oxygen transmission rate so in some instances where oxygen transmission is an issue I would not use Silicone. In my opinion I think good spring properties are important to make a reliable seal on the post o-ring in particular.

With respect to Flow Control Ball lock disconnects these are really handy. I personally just use the non-flow control model most of the time and then use the smaller 4mm ID beer line which I think works the best. With that said I do have one of my beer lines setup with FC ball lock disconnect because I sometimes put on a keg that has higher carbonation level. I also have a Jockey Box where the FC ball lock disconnects are essencial!

Stainless VS Plastic FC Ball Lock Disconnects
Some time ago we used to make stainless steel FC disconnects but now we only manufacture the plastic flow controll ball lock disconnect. The two designs were quite different internally. The stainless model relied entirely on two nested cone pieces like most ball lock disconnects. As the two male and female cone pieces come together the the flow path is restricted and thus you get a somewhat linear relationship between the flow control setting and the flow speed of the liquid. The plastic one on the other hand relies partly on this same method but also has the additional mechanism that the liquid is forced to change 180 degree direction in the ball lock disconnect twice. This is an important fact as change in direction causes the liquid to drop in flow speed substantially and this effect is non-linear. So as the flow speed is higher the reduction in flow speed is higher and this gives you even better flow control performance especially when you have higher pressures. This design was only possible because we have more design freedom with injection molded plastics and it was not possible to easily make this design in stainless steel. So once again when it comes to the flow control ball lock disconnects I also prefer the plastic ones.

Also the plastic FC ball lock disconnects have been designed with a "Tang" at the top of the push in fitting. So this makes for a great option if you want to dispense beer directly from the keg post. The tang prevents the tap from spinning around. See image below. This new Nukatap mini works great in combination with the FC disconnect too. I hope we can get these new mini taps out to you something this year in America.

 

[Bassman2003]

Kegland, I really like your products but am not having a good time with the plastic adjustable QDs. I happen to be on so I will ask about them as they are not working well. I have tried them on two different kegs and seem to be getting air coming into the QD and into the beer line as I have pockets in the beer line on the QD side. When I swap the connector for an old school connector the beer pours fine. I have decided to return these two products scratching my head a little. If the O-ring seal was the problem, why don't the old school QDs have issues? I also own a SS adjustable (v2) and it handles the buna-N O-rings just fine as well.

Any tech support ideas before I send them back to MoreBeer? Thanks.

 

[KegLand]

Kegland, I really like your products but am not having a good time with the plastic adjustable QDs. I happen to be on so I will ask about them as they are not working well. I have tried them on two different kegs and seem to be getting air coming into the QD and into the beer line as I have pockets in the beer line on the QD side. When I swap the connector for an old school connector the beer pours fine. I have decided to return these two products scratching my head a little. If the O-ring seal was the problem, why don't the old school QDs have issues? I also own a SS adjustable (v2) and it handles the buna-N O-rings just fine as well.

Any tech support ideas before I send them back to MoreBeer? Thanks.

If you have air in the beer line you most likely have an issue with the lines not being correctly balanced. Either beer too warm, beer too carbonated, or not enough dispense pressure to keep the gas in solution. This is normally the case.

It's impossible for air to get into the QD and if there was a hole it would be leaking beer because presumably the line is under pressure.

All flow control devices like this will cause some degree of turbulence which is why I mentioned in my previous post that I prefer to use small ID beer line most of the time. With that said there are some instances where you really need FC so you have the flexibility. If your system is not balanced well you might get tolerable results with standard non-flow control products and a flow control device might push you over the edge. With that said if your system is balanced correctly you should still get good results.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for your reply. I will share more information which can maybe help discover the reason why the plastic FC QDs are the only things failing in my setup.

I have four kegs. All use the 4mm EVA Barrier tubing. I generally run beers at 15 PSI @ 45 deg. F. I have about 9-11 feet of tubing between the kegs an the shanks which are mounted on the door of the fridge. So the beer travels fairly evenly flat all the way to the shank in the same temp environment.

As far as my system being balanced, if I can pour a beer without any flow restriction, why would adding flow restriction make it worse? In my mind, flow control should start at no restriction and work from there. With my 4th keg, I have the SS FC QD from Kegland and I am able to serve hefeweizen in the 22 PSI range no problem. I just dial up the flow restriction and the pour is slower.

So what is happening with the plastic FCs? Are my lines too long and the pressure is too low?

When I say bubbles in the line, it is gaps in the beer out of the QD, not on the shank end. I have turned the dial to both ends and it seems I can't replicate the old school black QD successful pour.

As a side note: I thought flow control faucets and QDs where designed to let you pour beer in more demanding situations. Meaning high carbonation levels maybe exceeding the normal line restriction. Basically an "out of balance" situation. If not, then what are designed for?

Thanks for your help.

 

[KegLand]

Thanks for your reply. I will share more information which can maybe help discover the reason why the plastic FC QDs are the only things failing in my setup.

I have four kegs. All use the 4mm EVA Barrier tubing. I generally run beers at 15 PSI @ 45 deg. F. I have about 9-11 feet of tubing between the kegs an the shanks which are mounted on the door of the fridge. So the beer travels fairly evenly flat all the way to the shank in the same temp environment.

As far as my system being balanced, if I can pour a beer without any flow restriction, why would adding flow restriction make it worse? In my mind, flow control should start at no restriction and work from there. With my 4th keg, I have the SS FC QD from Kegland and I am able to serve hefeweizen in the 22 PSI range no problem. I just dial up the flow restriction and the pour is slower.

So what is happening with the plastic FCs? Are my lines too long and the pressure is too low?

When I say bubbles in the line, it is gaps in the beer out of the QD, not on the shank end. I have turned the dial to both ends and it seems I can't replicate the old school black QD successful pour.

As a side note: I thought flow control faucets and QDs where designed to let you pour beer in more demanding situations. Meaning high carbonation levels maybe exceeding the normal line restriction. Basically an "out of balance" situation. If not, then what are designed for?

Thanks for your help.

Can you please take some measurements for me. Can you please pour a beer into a disposable plastic cup that has very little thermal mass. Measure the temperature of this beer inside the cup.

Also can you send a photo of the beer lines immediately after you pour and then after 5 minutes. I would like to see if the bubbles are getting bigger in the lines after 5 min.

Also can you open the tap into the cup and measure how manly ml of beer is in the glass with the tap fully open for 10 seconds.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. I can take the temperature reading, but I have uninstalled the two QDs at this point. I can tell you from memory that the lines had large pockets of space on the QD end. This gave the impression that "air" was leaking in via the QD

I can re-attach one as I have a keg of older lager that was going to go anyway. This beer has been on tap with the black QDs for pretty many months without issue. I changed to the FC QDs and the pours were out the window. Went back to the black QD and it was like it never missed a step.

I can say, 15 PSI without any restriction yields a pretty fast pour (which is why I would like to move to an adjustable QD). 10 seconds is going to yield a lot of beer. Give me a few days and I will be back in touch.

 

[KegLand]

Thanks. I can take the temperature reading, but I have uninstalled the two QDs at this point. I can tell you from memory that the lines had large pockets of space on the QD end. This gave the impression that "air" was leaking in via the QD

I can re-attach one as I have a keg of older lager that was going to go anyway. This beer has been on tap with the black QDs for pretty many months without issue. I changed to the FC QDs and the pours were out the window. Went back to the black QD and it was like it never missed a step.

I can say, 15 PSI without any restriction yields a pretty fast pour (which is why I would like to move to an adjustable QD). 10 seconds is going to yield a lot of beer. Give me a few days and I will be back in touch.

Ok great. Thanks for that. For most spouts that are approximately 10mm ID the ideal flow rate should be about 300ml-450ml per 10 seconds.

I will wait to hear back with you on the other measurements and hopefully we can find the issue.

 

[Beermeister32]

Go make your own . Easy to build and work great..!

 

[KegLand]

Go make your own . Easy to build and work great..!
View attachment 812600

Haha. Thanks for that.

The Nukatap FC does have the option for a auto off spring and so does the Nukatap Mini but if you are using Perlick this can be a good option for you.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

As of a few minutes ago, two of my beers are on Nukataps with Kegland flow control disconnects.

I can't make a really informed judgment based on a few minutes, but so far, it looks good. The Nukataps are lighter and much simpler than the Perlicks, and they don't have all the nooks and crannies for catching trub and getting stuck. Also, Intertap springs fit Nukataps, so now I have two beer faucets that close themselves.

I turned the disconnects all the way down, installed the faucets, and poured. I opened the disconnects up around 1.75-2 turns. My disconnects are marked so I know how far they've turned. Adjusting the flow was easy.

I have not shortened the beer lines yet, but I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens. I want to have enough line so I can move it around while putting kegs in the keezer, but I don't want endless loops in the way.

It looks like the disconnects live up to the hype. They are easy to use, and they come apart very easily for cleaning, unlike the regular Kegland disconnects, most of which required tools to get them apart.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I am satisfied with the pour I got from this faucet. I made a wheat beer, and it gave me a lot of trouble until today. This time, I got a pretty good pour. Given that this is a wheat beer, I don't think it's realistic to expect a little two-finger head. I think this is about as good as it will get.

If I understand Kegland's marketing patter correctly, they think Nukataps stir the beer up less than Perlicks. The performance I just got seems to back up that claim.

 

[KegLand]

Thanks for that Clint.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Hey, Kegland! Start making the caps on your regular disconnects long instead of round. Then people could get leverage to open them without tools that gouge them up.

You're welcome. Send me a check.

 

[day_trippr]

Or maybe just fire the gorilla that has been tightening them at the factory?

Cheers!

 

[Cider Wraith]

This topic was a primary interest when discovering this forum and now, as then, anyone reading this (other than @Beermeister32) will wonder when I crash-landed here from another planet. I don't run tap lines, don't want to run tap lines, ecstatic about not running tap lines. Thrilled not getting tangled in and washing tap lines and certainly the crash-landing suspicion will be confirmed hearing I don't want a decorative tap room display.

Running direct connected taps in old refrigerators has been a blessing. When a keg is empty, in seconds keg and faucet are hauled out for cleaning. And with refrigerated tapped units, no warm faucets, no insects in faucets.

Wish I had more flexibility with carbonation but learned to live with about 8 ~ 10, works well enough to be thankful to avoid the tap line tangle tango. Did purchase an off-brand flow-control faucet haven't tried, this thread is motivation to begin more investigating.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Or maybe just fire the gorilla that has been tightening them at the factory?

Cheers!

Sometimes that gorilla is you. It's easy to overtighten these for fear of leaks, and if you leave one sitting around with beer or wort in it, you're gluing it on.

There is no reason at all to make these things round.

 

[Bassman2003]

Kegland,

Sorry for the time gap! I have been very busy with a lot of things. I have an old keg that is about to get replaced with a new one, so I will try to take the images/video tomorrow, but I have decided to return the two flow control QDs anyway. I have a 1 1/2 gallon keg (without buna-N gaskets) that I wanted to use with my Kegland pluto gun and FCQDs. I hooked everything up kept it all in the fridge overnight so temps were all the same. The QDs acted the exact same way - bubbles throughout the line and I could hear some sound coming from the QD. Also, when I put it on the collar does not want to snap down on its own. If I press it down, it goes down. Just seems like this thing is not to tolerances.

I got so frustrated that I took the Stainless FCQD off of my fridge keg setupand put it on this little keg and all of the issues went away. Anyway, I can see a bad situation and it is not worth the hassle even though you say they are better. They are going back to Morebeer.