Pasteurization questions

[Basilisk]

Hi guys!

So I have a batch that's about ready to be bottled, I think. I read the stickied pasteurization thread (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/), but it didn't answer something for me: How much sugar should I add?

I want the cider to be carbonated (of course), but also sweet. Pasteurization will allow me to do this, right?

So right now, I'm pretty sure I've let it ferment long enough to eat all the available sugar. So now I want to add some amount to it just before bottling so it can carbonate. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Also, when do I add the extra sugar? Right now my cider is in gallon glass jugs, but there is trub at the bottom I don't want in my final product. So do I pour the jugs out, then mix the sugar in? That seems like the only way I can think of but also lets a lot of oxidation happen...or does the brief time it has contact with the air not really matter?

Thanks everyone!

Edit: I didn't have a hydrometer when I started this batch, so I don't know the OG, but I have one now so I could find out the FG. Would that help in determining things?

 

[FarmBoy530]

If the SG (specific gravity) stops dropping your done so yes it helps. When your done fermenting gently poor your jars into a bottling bucket or large vessel. Add your priming sugar syrup and bottle right away. after a couple weeks taste your cider and see if its carbed. When it is, then you can pasteurize. If you do it before carb is done it will kill your yeast. Pasteurization shouldn't really change your flavor. By the way, the only reason you need to pasteurize is to give a shelf life over a year, otherwise I don't see the reason.

 

[dinnerstick]

siphon the cleared cider into a big pot or bucket. pour it if you must but siphoning is cleaner and makes it easier to avoid sediment. don't fret over a tiny bit of sediment though.
boil some sugar in a small amount of water or juice to dissolve and semi-sterilize. about 25 grams per liter will raise the gravity from 1.000 to around 1.010, which is probably at the low end for a semi-sweet cider. sweetness has to be determined empirically; depends on your personal taste and how sour and bitter the cider is. i would start with around 1.010 and then add more sugar-water, mixing thoroughly (it will sink to the bottom and can be fairly resistant to mixing at first) and tasting as you go. mix well but don't splash it around and you will be ok with oxidation. the bottle fermentation will consume a little bit of this new sugar but not so much as to make a huge difference in taste.
the other thing you can't predict is how quickly they will carb up, so bottle one in plastic to check by feel, or start checking the glass ones soon; days not weeks. i have to completely disagree with the above post- living cider will have an excellent shelf life, a year no problem, but only if the bottle hasn't exploded.

 

[FarmBoy530]

Cider has a shorter shelf life if its under 10ish% abv because its not boiled like beer and has no hops. Because of this it can be harder to keep cider as long without contamination. not saying you cant by any means, this is just commercial standard. If you follow the advice above on priming make sure you chill your bottles as soon as they reach the carb level and dryness you are looking for or there is a good chance they will explode. If you are keging the best bet is to make a base wine of juice and sugar and ferment out to about 10% to 12% abv and kill ferm by chilling or with sulfides. then back sweeten to the desired flavor and force carb. I suppose you could over back sweeten a few points for priming and when they get to the carb you want chill them to 33deg and keep them there. Back sweetening is always best with good juice not sugar water if you want it to be a solid apple cider. Ps. if you boil juice u risk loosing clarity.

 

[buffalo]

Just make sure you either throw them in the fridge or pastuerize if you backsweeten or prime,otherwise your going to most likely have bombs. Add the sugar just before you plan on bottling,i have been adding my sugar/juice concentrate about a hour before i bottle it and so far that has worked good for me.

 

[Basilisk]

If the SG (specific gravity) stops dropping your done so yes it helps. When your done fermenting gently poor your jars into a bottling bucket or large vessel. Add your priming sugar syrup and bottle right away. after a couple weeks taste your cider and see if its carbed. When it is, then you can pasteurize.

A couple weeks? The pasteurization thread says about a week max, usually...

If you do it before carb is done it will kill your yeast. Pasteurization shouldn't really change your flavor.

This is good to know.

By the way, the only reason you need to pasteurize is to give a shelf life over a year, otherwise I don't see the reason.

Errr, because I want to keep it around and not in the fridge? Is there some alternate way I don't know about to carbonate it without a keg, have it be sweet, not use artificial sweeteners, and not have to keep it in the fridge? This seems to be the only way.

 

[Basilisk]

the other thing you can't predict is how quickly they will carb up, so bottle one in plastic to check by feel, or start checking the glass ones soon; days not weeks. i have to completely disagree with the above post- living cider will have an excellent shelf life, a year no problem, but only if the bottle hasn't exploded.

Ok, good to know. I basically have to check. But let's say I check with a bottle, and find that it's not carbonated enough yet. Is there a good way to recap the bottle and let it carbonate again, or is it basically wasted at that point?

 

[Basilisk]

So the consensus seems to be that pasteurization doesn't change the flavor -- that's nice. But what I really need to know is, how much sugar does carbonating actually eat up? For example, can I basically add sugar to my mix, make it the sweetness I'd like, and then assume that the amount of sugar the yeast is going to eat to carbonate the bottles before I pasteurize is basically negligible? Or if I want it a certain sweetness, do I have to make it significantly sweeter than that before I bottle it?

Also, is there any reason to use juice, rather than just more brown sugar?


Thanks!

 

[dinnerstick]

i have heard other people say that average carb (2ish vol) takes about 2 gravity points, so from 1.012 to 1.010. i have no idea if it's true, and i would hate to pass on bad info but that's the only estimate i have encountered. anyone else comment on that one? so it's almost negligible but not quite.
if you use juice instead of sugar you boost the apple flavor a bit. you also dilute the alcohol % a bit. apple concentrate is popular since it doesn't really dilute and packs in more apple. and it's totally unavailable in holland so don't try it in holland or they will be on to you
farmboy seems to have misunderstood that you pasteurize to keep unfermented sugar

 

[FarmBoy530]

No I understand that, I was not thinking however about bottling and natural carbonation. I'm with you on the concentrate too. Sugar and apples packed in a nice little frozen tube. Using this may give a certain level of sweetness and your fermentables for carb. I would do a couple test bottles to see how long they are taking to get to the carb you want and the sweetness. Maybe someone will have a better system. I would start with dinnersticks suggestion of 2 points. It gives you a starting point.

 

[Basilisk]

Well, I did it. We'll see how horribly this goes. I did roughly 50g of brown sugar for each liter, because that got it at about the sweetness I wanted. I'm going to check a bottle for carbonation at day 3, and then check another bottle every 2 days. Is that a good plan?

Thanks!!

 

[FarmBoy530]

After day 3 (depending on the results) I may even go every day. Of course if your not even close on day 3 then I might wait 2 more. Reason being I would rather test a few extra then go over my mark and over carb a whole batch. I had a cider once that I over carbed and I didn't even back sweeten it. My only guess is bottling before attenuation was done. however it was so dry maybe I just over primed it. Either way being over carbed made it a total wast...

 

[Basilisk]

Hmmm, it's day 3 today so I opened one today. It made a little noise, but not at all what a carbonated bottle should sound like, and it didn't taste at all carbonated...hmm...

 

[Urtalkn2Diz]

Might take a while. I have friends that have lets theirs set for over two weeks to get the carbination right.

Tip: Next time, save a few 12oz water bottles. use them as your test vessels. That way your not wasting the time of recapping bottles. This will also give you a benchmark so you know when to begin checking the carbination of your glass bottles.

 

[FarmBoy530]

Great advice! ^^ I would try one at a week and it depends on your bottle tamp also. maybe recap the one you opened and try it again in a few days. Once you get signs of real carb though I would be on it like white on rice!

 

[Basilisk]

Will I be able to notice at all from the outside of the bottle?

I honestly didn't make that many, I have maybe 15 total, so each time I open one it sets me back a little. I'll make more next time

 

[CDSEA]

Where can I get formulas on gravity to CO2 volume and grams of sugar to gravity change?

 

[dinnerstick]

you can get that information from an online priming sugar calculator. for example the last cider i primed, the tastybrew priming calculator told me for 2.5 volumes of CO2 fermented at 20 degrees i needed 6 grams sugar per liter, which amounts to a gravity change of around 2.3 points (0.0023 points really, or 0.6 brix)

 

[divi2323]

Home brew calculator by ghost chili software is a great app if you have an Android device.

It does all kinds of calculations for you like abv, priming sugar, metric to English conversions. Free too, I highly recommend it.

 

[Basilisk]

Huh... so I've been opening about one a day, or every other day, and they're still not really carbonated at all. 200g of brown sugar for a gallon should do it, right? I'm afraid it wasn't enough and the yeast just ate all the sugar and nothing happened... I added a lot because I wanted it to be sweet but also carbonated.

This calculator ( http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html ) seems to say I should add 0.8oz for a gallon (I just chose New England cider)! That can't be right, even if you didn't want it sweet.

 

[Urtalkn2Diz]

Like I said it may take several weeks to carb. Your yeast population may be low so it could take awhile. If you crack one open transfer it to a sanitized plastic water bottle, set it and forget it for another week then check it. I just did a test bottle Monday with cider thats been aging in a fridge for 2 months so I dont expect to see any hints of carbination until next weekend at the earliest.

 

[Urtalkn2Diz]

.

 

[BoomerCreek]

I've put a half teaspoon straight into the bottles before bottling and it seemed to work just fine. Patience is a virtue, especially when dealing with homemade libations.

 

[BoomerCreek]

FarmBoy, do you have access to heirloom or other cider apples up around the Auburn area. I have a place in Nevada City and go up there fairly frequently. I would love to score some good apples from that area for next year.

 

[Basilisk]

I've put a half teaspoon straight into the bottles before bottling and it seemed to work just fine. Patience is a virtue, especially when dealing with homemade libations.

I know patience is a big thing around here. But normally there's not really an upper limit to it -- if you let your brew ferment more, it just changes it a little (and probably for the better). Here, if I overshoot and wait too long, I'll get exploding bottles. So it's not so simple.

 

[MaxOn60th]

Just make sure you either throw them in the fridge or pastuerize if you backsweeten or prime,otherwise your going to most likely have bombs.

Is refrigeration an acceptable substitute for pasteurization, as far as preventing bombs goes? I've been curious about that. Can anyone supply some more details on this topic? IE, how long to ferment/carbonate in-bottle before refrigeration, how long they can safely be stored in the fridge, should I use reduced priming sugar if I plan to do this.
Thanks for the help!

 

[divi2323]

You should read the pasturization sticky in the forum. It is loaded with answers to your questions.

Pasturization kills your yeast dead. Refrigeration will stop your fermentation but only makes your yeast go dormant.

 

[jefflane510]

Like I said it may take several weeks to carb. Your yeast population may be low so it could take awhile. If you crack one open transfer it to a sanitized plastic water bottle, set it and forget it for another week then check it. I just did a test bottle Monday with cider thats been aging in a fridge for 2 months so I dont expect to see any hints of carbination until next weekend at the earliest.

I've been waiting over 4 weeks to get my backsweetened (with homemade maple syrup) carbed. they're sitting in my bedroom at a steady 58 degrees F. I gave up on checking bottles every couple days, but a couple days ago I cracked one open and got the telltale "pssst". Now another is in the fridge, so I will give it one last try and probably pasteurize tonight. They probably would have carbed up sooner at a warmer temp, or if the cider wasn't as crystal clear as it was at bottling time. Temp and yeast health are two important variables in how quickly it will carb.

This is my first backsweetened cider. I typically make them very dry, with no extra sugar at all. I've still got cider like this from 2009 that tastes incredible. All I've done for it is let it age in the basement-again, it's not backsweetened. I haven't ever had an issue with hard cider going bad after its been bottled.

 

[FarmBoy530]

boomercreek. we have 2 orchards in town and apple hill is rather close, I'd try that. FoxBarrel cider is in colfax and they used to use apple hill juice when they started. However the company just sold to coors and is the worst company to work for! Their quality control is a joke and they treat employs like junk! Try to stay away from foxbarrel and crispin!