oxygen and yeast

[zoomzilla]

I've had a bad run of batches after great success early on. I stopped brewing for a year(moving to a new place, temp? issues and time) Now i'm back and want to know if maybe oxygen levels were my real problem.
It seemed to be temp issues because all my batches tasted like Belgians- too hot even though temp readings looked good.
What else can cause these flavors? Underpitching?
I did attempt on a small scale reusing and washing yeast for multiple batches, all turned out the same- tasting like a belgian.
Was the original strain infected with something?
My only method for oxygenation is the shake method, which is wierd because before the taste problems I didn't even know about oxygenation and I made downright good tasting beers.
What else can account for the belgian style taste of beers that shouldn't taste like that?

 

[eastoak]

what yeast did you use?

 

[zoomzilla]

what yeast did you use?

That's a tough question to answer. My recent batch is pretty much irrelevant, but I was using mostly US05 dry yeast and it's subsequent generations. I used others but they all turned out the same. I only use dry yeast packs so I thought I should be making starters, which I did the results were the same.
I've revamped my sanitation(iodine based instead of starsan) and new tubes and brushes.
It's possible the entire fault lies with temperature, but just in case I'm trying to maximize my sanitation. it can't hurt.

 

[eastoak]

do you have fermentation temperature control, like a fridge? how chlorinated is your water, do you remove the chlorine or chloramines? could also be bacterial. US-05 is a very clean yeast and should taste nothing like a belgian.

 

[zoomzilla]

do you have fermentation temperature control, like a fridge? how chlorinated is your water, do you remove the chlorine or chloramines? could also be bacterial. US-05 is a very clean yeast and should taste nothing like a belgian.

At that point i had no temp control other than a basement(which had always worked just fine until those days-63F ambient) Water is a big question. I was in the country on a well which tasted horrible- either becuase I'd never had well water until that point or becuase it was actually terrible, I will never know. Can water composition give the off flavors of hot fermentation?

 

[eastoak]

if the water tasted horrible then it's possible that something in the water could cause a phenolic flavor in the finished beer. crappy water will always make crappy beer.

 

[briggssteel]

I would think the culprit is fermentation temp if you're not controlling it in a fridge with a temp controller. If it's not that, try switching to liquid yeast for a batch to see if that helps. You could also be under pitching. Use the mr malty yeast calculator to find out how much you need. I doubt it's infection or your water. Infection and poor water could give bad flavors, but I doubt it would show up as hot alcohol. You could also be pitching your yeast too warm. Try pitching 2-5 degrees colder than what you're going to ferment at and let it warm up to that temperature.

As I said though, if you're not using proper temp control, that's what I'd bet on for hot alcohol flavors. It can go as much as 10 degrees hotter with no proper control.

 

[zoomzilla]

Could pitching too hot cause the off taste even if the fermentation temp was normal? What I mean is that I may have been pitching the yeast into wort that was about 70-72F then letting it cool in the basement overnight which would've been around 63F. Could being pitched at the higher temp cause a ruined beer even if it was only at that temp for a few hours?

 

[briggssteel]

You wouldn't be getting fusels at 72. Once you start getting into the upper 70's and 80's you'll start getting hot alcohol pitching at those temperatures. So you can probably rule that out. It's still normally recommended to pitch around your fermentation temp or colder (especially for lagers).

If your basement is only 63 and you're pitching no hotter than 72, I can't see that producing fusel alcohols, although I could be wrong. I know it's a big investment, but I highly recommend getting a temp controlled fridge as your next big brewing purchase. Next to sanitation, fermentation temperature control is the single most important aspect of brewing.

For your next step I would try switching to liquid yeast for a batch and see how it turns out. Make a healthy starter using the mr malty yeast pitching rate calculator and see if that improves the issue.

 

[Volcanobrew]

Are you are thinking water could still be an issue? If so I would go get a couple of 5 gallon jugs of spring water. There are so many nasty things that could be in your well water, e-coli being one of them and you wouldn't know unless you tested it. An animal walking by and leaving a turd near your well will do it if you have ground water seeping into the well. Lime could also be a culprit, but the easiest way to rule out the water quality is to buy 10 gallons of quality water. Most producers even have their water test info available online for when you get into adjusting your salts/PH. Not sure if you are saying you are still working with well water? Another thought is what are you using to cool the wort? If you have a chiller why not just bring the temp all the way down to pitching temp? If you are not cooling fast enough that will usually cause more of a DMS problem than an estery or fruity/banana flavor if that is what you are getting. Oxygen can be a problem too, if you don't have an 02 bottle with a stone try letting your wort splash from a height when racking from your kettle to your primary fermenter will help along with shaking.

 

[briggssteel]

I wouldn't think his water would be contributing to hot alcohol flavors IMO. I'm thinking it has to be some issue involving yeast/fermentation/oxygen or something of that nature. Although if the water tastes bad I definitely wouldn't use it. I use all RO water for my beers although that has it's pros and cons as well in terms of flavor/PH. That's a whole different discussion though. Also I wouldn't be worried about water and pathogens involving beer. If the boil didn't kill everything the alcohol would take care of the rest since deadly pathogens can't live in beer I don't believe. Just bacteria that can cause off flavors like souring.

 

[zoomzilla]

I'm off well water now and I do have a temp controller but its not working. I'm having a buddy take a look so hopefully by my next batch it will be ready. Mainly I'm just worried because I couldn't get a drinkable beer from the last ten at my old house. Conditions are much better now though so it should be fine

 

[eastoak]

I wouldn't think his water would be contributing to hot alcohol flavors IMO. I'm thinking it has to be some issue involving yeast/fermentation/oxygen or something of that nature. Although if the water tastes bad I definitely wouldn't use it. I use all RO water for my beers although that has it's pros and cons as well in terms of flavor/PH. That's a whole different discussion though. Also I wouldn't be worried about water and pathogens involving beer. If the boil didn't kill everything the alcohol would take care of the rest since deadly pathogens can't live in beer I don't believe. Just bacteria that can cause off flavors like souring.

you are right that water won't contribute to hot alcohol flavors but in rereading the original post he says nothing of hot alcohol flavors he does mention a belgian flavor which would be phenols. phenolic flavors could be caused by bad water.

 

[zwiller]

Could pitching too hot cause the off taste even if the fermentation temp was normal? What I mean is that I may have been pitching the yeast into wort that was about 70-72F then letting it cool in the basement overnight which would've been around 63F. Could being pitched at the higher temp cause a ruined beer even if it was only at that temp for a few hours?

ALWAYS pitch cool and ALWAYS measure temp prior to pitching. You might be surprised how long it takes for wort to cool... Do not be afraid from the wort to sit a while to cool. A water bath will probably help alot if no fridge. This gets my vote, along with a possibly stressed yeast being repitched. I've had old harvested chico throw clovey phenols.

 

[zoomzilla]

you are right that water won't contribute to hot alcohol flavors but in rereading the original post he says nothing of hot alcohol flavors he does mention a belgian flavor which would be phenols. phenolic flavors could be caused by bad water.

I've always been under the assumption that hot fermentation causes the Belgian like flavor in non Belgian beers. This would be a huge revelation for me because it means my fermentation temps were probably fine and it was just bad water. What is it in water that would cause that flavor?

 

[progmac]

I did attempt on a small scale reusing and washing yeast for multiple batches, all turned out the same- tasting like a belgian.

it sounds to me like you reused a contaminated yeast. after experiencing similar problems, i now almost always use fresh yeast.

 

[eastoak]

I've always been under the assumption that hot fermentation causes the Belgian like flavor in non Belgian beers. This would be a huge revelation for me because it means my fermentation temps were probably fine and it was just bad water. What is it in water that would cause that flavor?

if you could taste a hot fermented beer next to a belgian you would know the difference right away fusel alcohol is very different to phenols which are the classic belgian taste.

There are several other sources of phenolic flvors which make their way into your beer. One is spoilage bacteria in your brewing water. Algae produce many phenolic compounds and are found in any water supply which is exposed to sunlight. Water sources exposed to industrial waste will be high in phenols. Be wary of using water taken from a surface source. Streams and lakes used for municipal water supplies are a big source of phenols. Bacteria is another source of phenols.


source

i'm not saying that i'm right and everyone else is wrong, just adding another area of potential problems to look at in your brewing.

 

[eastoak]

it sounds to me like you reused a contaminated yeast. after experiencing similar problems, i now almost always use fresh yeast.

reusing contaminated yeast would certainly be a problem but reusing yeast is as old as making beer and an accepted practice in the brewing world. the issue is one of maintaining good sanitation and knowing when you have a contaminated beer not of avoiding reuse of yeast. of course many people choose to not reuse yeast which is totally fine but it's not something that has to be avoided.