Oxyclean - rinsing clean or leaving residue?

[kahunaman]

I've switched to cleaning bottles, etc. with oxyclean and then sanitizing with starsan. I soak my bottles in oxyxlean and water, then rinse them with a faucet mounted blast nozzle... then dip them in starsan solution, and let them dry out bubbles and all (per random musings i've picked off this board).
I did this for 2 batches so far. I just popped open a bottle the other day of one, and it had a bit of a soapy taste... and when I emptied the bottle it had what looked like soap/starsan bubbles (I know the starsan bubbles are good - just saying what it looked like).

Opened one of the other batch today and it had bubbles of the soapy type.

Anyone run into difficulty rinsing oxyclean from bottles? I know it's not the starsan because bubbles are good and get digested by the beer with starsan...

Should I not be using Oxyclean as I am?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Personally, I am switching back to PBW. The Oxyclean works well, but is difficult to rinse completely and I think PBW does a better job anyway. The price difference is worth the piece of mind IMHO.

 

[kahunaman]

I'm not worried about saving a few bucks. It's just convenient because I can get a bunch of it all at once. I'll be very pissed if I have 10 gallons of soapy beer!

 

[winzerz]

what I did was soak em overnight in oxy clean

rinse well

put in dishwasher with no soap or drying agent and run a cycle

I did notice when loading the rinsed but now dry bottles they had a haze

on them but I think the dishwasher will rinse them well and a heat dry to boot

:rockin:

 

[Grinder12000]

I use Oxy in the carboy for a few hours to completely clean. then rinse a few times and there is no residue that I can tell.

Plus when you rinse again with one step you get anything left. Same with bottles - I've seen nothing to suggest there is anything left.

 

[Skins_Brew]

I was soaking a bunch of hoses in oxyclean and forgot about them for like a week. When I finally remembered I rinsed them off and there was a white powderry residue when they dried. It took several rinses to get the residue off. Just a FYI

 

[ChshreCat]

People with hard water have found more of a problem with residue. I know I have no issues whatsoever with it. I soak my bottles in oxyclean, inside and out. Rinse the outside and then fill and empty them three times with fresh w ater and they're good to go.

 

[kahunaman]

oxy works great for my carboys, etc - but i may do something different for bottles.

 

[DeathBrewer]

give it a light rinse after the oxyclean (sodium percarbonate) then add a small amount of water and some citric acid. swirl around to catch all the surfaces. this will neutralize the oxyclean. then rinse and you're good to sanitize.

it's VERY difficult to get oxyclean rinsed off...it takes several rinses. using the citric acid makes it no problem at all.

you know it still has oxyclean on it when you touch it and it's slippery.

 

[Jonnio]

Thanks for the tip Deathbrewer - that's a good one

For the residue I have found that white vinegar works well.

PS - I am scared now since I just put the two cases of my baby beer into bottles last night and I did an oxy soak with two rinses and then a rinse of starsan....hopefully its ok, but I better drink one before giving them away.

 

[kahunaman]

I'm with a bro... I just ate it with my 2 batches that I think will be soapy.
damn.

Thanks for the tip Deathbrewer - that's a good one

For the residue I have found that white vinegar works well.

PS - I am scared now since I just put the two cases of my baby beer into bottles last night and I did an oxy soak with two rinses and then a rinse of starsan....hopefully its ok, but I better drink one before giving them away.

 

[TimSTi]

I'm with a bro... I just ate it with my 2 batches that I think will be soapy.
damn.

I rinsed mine 3 times after an oxyclean soak. The bottle felt fine, lost all slipperiness. I would fill the bottles up about halfway, put my thumb over the opening and shake it around violently three times. Seems to do the trick for me. Have had a sixxer so far of my first batch and noticed zero soapy flavors or residues.

 

[Blender]

Personally, I am switching back to PBW. The Oxyclean works well, but is difficult to rinse completely and I think PBW does a better job anyway. The price difference is worth the piece of mind IMHO.

Yeah I found the same thing and I did not to multiple rinse bottles or carboys. I use PBW now for cleaning.

 

[john from dc]

i have pretty hard water and i get the residue pretty often.

for one, thing, i now use less oxyclean. if i'm going to soak for more than a couple hours, a half scoop is enough to get rid of even the most caked on dried gunk.

to remove the residue an hourlong soak in normally diluted starsan does the trick. pretty much any other acid (citric acid, vinegar) should work as well.

the thing is though, since starsan's sanitizing powers come from its acidity and since oxyclean residue is basic i've read that it can interfere with the starsan's sanitizing ability. just to be safe i usually dip or spray the bottles with some fresh starsan right before filling. maybe it's unnecessary, but it's a cheap price to pay for peace of mind.

 

[mccarthy]

i use oxyclean to clean everything except bottles and i always rinse well and have never had a soapy taste. for bottles i just make sure after drinking i rinse with hot water a couple times and then store. on bottling day all we do is make sure that the bottles have no mold or sediment and then put them all in the dishwasher with no soap and run a sanitize setting. works great and never an infection. i wouldnt waste my time washing each bottle, too much time and to much risk of not rinsing enough. a little residue in the carboy will be diluted with lots of beer, a little residue in a bottle will only be diluted with a little beer.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Oxyclean is Percarbonate and Soda Ash. The Percarbonate is like a powdered Hydrogen Peroxide. It is safe to use and doesn't really need to be rinsed off. The problem is the Soda Ash. It is the slippery soapy stuff that really really needs to be rinsed off. Oxyclean is not meant to be consumed.

I think it is funny that people will use Oxyclean to save a little money then spend all of that extra time and other chems and a lot of water to remove it. Even at minimum wage you are not really saving much money.

If you use Cleanitizer or One Step (no Soda Ash) you will not have to rinse. Time is money. Both Cleanitizer and One Step are Percarbonate with a inert filler that doesn't need to be rinsed.

Forrest

 

[Tenchiro]

When I de-label bottles with it they all get a good rinse with this;

I got an adapter to put it on the sink and with hot water it does a great job.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Oxyclean is Percarbonate and Soda Ash. The Percarbonate is like a powdered Hydrogen Peroxide. It is safe to use and doesn't really need to be rinsed off. The problem is the Soda Ash. It is the slippery soapy stuff that really really needs to be rinsed off. Oxyclean is not meant to be consumed.

I think it is funny that people will use Oxyclean to save a little money then spend all of that extra time and other chems and a lot of water to remove it. Even at minimum wage you are not really saving much money.

If you use Cleanitizer or One Step (no Soda Ash) you will not have to rinse. Time is money. Both Cleanitizer and One Step are Percarbonate with a inert filler that doesn't need to be rinsed.

Forrest

Forrest,
Do Cleanitizer and/or One Step's formulas contain Hydrogen Peroxide or Percarbonate or other? If they contain percarb, won't they become soda ash (sodium carbonate).
Thanks

 

[DeathBrewer]

Oxyclean is Percarbonate and Soda Ash. The Percarbonate is like a powdered Hydrogen Peroxide. It is safe to use and doesn't really need to be rinsed off. The problem is the Soda Ash. It is the slippery soapy stuff that really really needs to be rinsed off. Oxyclean is not meant to be consumed.

I think it is funny that people will use Oxyclean to save a little money then spend all of that extra time and other chems and a lot of water to remove it. Even at minimum wage you are not really saving much money.

If you use Cleanitizer or One Step (no Soda Ash) you will not have to rinse. Time is money. Both Cleanitizer and One Step are Percarbonate with a inert filler that doesn't need to be rinsed.

Forrest

i use sodium percarbonate not oxyclean...when it is mixed with water it releases soda ash and hydrogen peroxide. i assumed oxyclean was the same stuff.

it's very cheap. citric acid need only be used in a very small volume to neutralize it so there's not a big cost there either.

as for rinsing, when i'm cleaning out a carboy that has crap stuck to the sides of it, i'm always going to give a light rinse to get that stuff out anyway. and i'm talking about using about a gallon with the citric acid, not filling the whole container up again.

it's very quick, very effective and if the things i am using it on are relatively clean to begin with, i'll reuse the solution.

haven't used cleanitizer or one step, but i can get a couple pounds of percarb and 8 oz of citric acid cheaper than i can get 8 oz of cleanitizer or one step.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

i use sodium percarbonate not oxyclean...when it is mixed with water it releases soda ash and hydrogen peroxide. i assumed oxyclean was the same stuff.

Death,
Oxyclean is percarb that is cut with soda ash (sodium carbonate)

Because straight percarb is classified as an oxidizer, Oxyclean is "diluted" with soda ash to declassify it as an oxidizer.

To neutralize, couldn't you also use a vinegar solution?

 

[DeathBrewer]

not sure, just doing what i was taught by a friend.

if that's true, however, i have some infected apfelwein that is slowly turning into vinegar i could use (kind of expensive, tho)

 

[jcb317]

Instead of worrying about having vinegar or citric acid on hand(not that its that big of a deal) but can't you just do a rinse with starsan since its an acid anyway? So, slosh around some starsan inside, rinse with water, and then add more starsan for sanitation. When im working with oxyclean, instead of washing my hands for a couple minutes to get rid of the slimey feeling, i just spray my hands with starsan and do a quick rinse, instantly non-slippery and an exciting acid/base reaction.

As far as cost is concerned, I got a 4lb tub of oxyclean free for like $7 i think, plus a gallon of vinegar for around $1(lasted me the whole tub). The 1lb tubs of PBW at my LHBS are almost $10, so thats $2/lb for the oxyclean([$7+$1]/4) route and $10/lb for the PBW route.

I don't have anything against PBW, i think its a really great product, but money talks.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Forrest,
Do Cleanitizer and/or One Step's formulas contain Hydrogen Peroxide or Percarbonate or other? If they contain percarb, won't they become soda ash (sodium carbonate).
Thanks

Both Cleanitizer and One Step contain Percarbonate and do not contain soda ash. They do not contain Soda Ash. Oxyclean contains percarbonate and soda ash. Soda Ash is the stuff you really need to rinse well. There is not enough soda ash in percarbonate to worry about the soda ash. But when the Oxyclean is 50% soda ash it is a problem. The other ingredient in One Step and Cleanitizer help wash away the soda ash.

Forrest

 

[APendejo]

I use the generic Oxygen Cleaner that I got from Smart&Final. I normally only use it in my kegs as I found it to be a PIA to get the powdery film off the bottles. A final rinse with a mild white vinegar/water solution takes care of the powder problem, then another hot water rinse before sanitizing. Too much work for bottles.
AP

 

[GIusedtoBe]

Not germane to this discussion but am I the only guy who sanitizes bottles w/ bleach and water? I soak them for 30 minutes and rinse thouroughly w/ hot water at least twice and set them out to dry then fill and cap. No probs so far and no off flavors.

I do use Oxy for removing labels and One step for sanitizing my equipment.

Regards,
Al

 

[DeathBrewer]

you're not truly sanitizing anything if you're rinsing it off with un-sanitized water.

 

[yeoldebrewer]

I did a test soak with Oxyclean and a clear water glass--about 12 hours and didn't see any residue after repeated rinsing. BUT water quality etc. may be a factor. And I may have missed a residue if it was clear. Plus, the glass was initially clean.

I use Oxyclean for Better Bottle carboys but don't think I would trust it for bottling.

 

[Jonnio]

Well, I figured I would update the thread - in order to make sure I don't hand out a bunch of crappy beer I went ahead and popped open one of my bottles last night. No issues with the oxy soak imparting any flavors to that bottle...and it was one of the last to do when I was tired and ready to be done bottling, so I think I would definitely have scrimped on the rinsing of that one if any of em.

I also should probably add - I use straight percarbonate and add in a little of my own soda-ash, but at a less than 50/50 mixture or whatever brand name oxy is.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

you're not truly sanitizing anything if you're rinsing it off with un-sanitized water.

Doesn't that make it silly to use a sanitizer you have to rinse off?

Oxyclean will sanitize but you have to rinse it really well.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Well, I figured I would update the thread - in order to make sure I don't hand out a bunch of crappy beer I went ahead and popped open one of my bottles last night. No issues with the oxy soak imparting any flavors to that bottle...and it was one of the last to do when I was tired and ready to be done bottling, so I think I would definitely have scrimped on the rinsing of that one if any of em.

I also should probably add - I use straight percarbonate and add in a little of my own soda-ash, but at a less than 50/50 mixture or whatever brand name oxy is.

Just use the straight percarbonate don't add any soda ash. Jus use the percarbonate sparingly. I would use only 1 1/2 teaspoons per gallon and you will not need to rinse it off. If you add the soda ash you have to rinse really well.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Forrest,
My point is that sodium percarbonate becomes soda ash when it is re-hydrated. Percarbonate, in its anhydrous state, is a stable compound. When introduced with water it releases hydrogen peroxide and soda ash.

Pure percarbonate is classified as an oxidizer and is not able to be shipped without restriction by all of the small package carriers. As an oxidizer, pure percarbonate also shouldn't be sold to John Q. Public because of it's reactive nature. I was certain that your cleanitizer was not straight percarb for this reason.

Regarding cleanitizer, it DOES contain both percarbonate and soda ash (even though percarbonate becomes soda ash when water is added). It also contains sodium metasilicate. The metasilicate is a buffering agent that allows this compound to be used with soft metals like aluminum. If the metasilicate dries on a substrate like glass it will be next to impossible to remove, so in fact, cleanitizer is an inferior product to Oxiclean when cleaning any object made of glass including cleaning bottles.

Here's the M.S.D.S. for the cleanitizer

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Page 1 of 4
For Chemical Emergency, Spill, Leak, Fire, Exposure or Accident,
CALL INFOTRAC – Day or Night 1-800-535-5053
1. CHEMICAL PRODUCT AND COMPANY IDENTIFICATION
Product Name: BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Synonyms: Inorganic salts mixture
Company ID: Austin Homebrew Supply
7951 Burnet Rd.
Austin, TX 78757
Phone #s: Emergency Phone Number:
INFOTRAC (24-hr/7 days): 1-800-535-5053
For Medical Emergency - Call 1-800-535-5053
Date: 10/30/2006 Supersedes: New
2. COMPOSITION INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Component CAS Reg. No. %
Sodium Metasilicate 10213-79-3 40
Sodium Percarbonate 15630-89-4 30
Sodium Carbonate 497-19-6 30
See Section 8 for Personal Protection (PPE).
3. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
Emergency Overview:
Appearance & Odor: White powder with little odor.
Warning Statements: The product’s main routes of entry are through skin contact, eye contact
and inhalation of the dust. Product is basic and can cause irritation and possible burns.
Product will cause irritation to mucous membranes and the gastrointestinal tract if swallowed.
Product can cause damage to eyes. Product will cause dryness and irritation of the skin.
Product if inhaled may cause irritation to nasal and respiratory passages. Product decomposes
in a fire situation to hydrogen peroxide and oxygen. Product will react with aluminum and
magnesium metal.
Potential Adverse Health Effects:
Eye Contact: May Cause eye irritation and damage.
Skin Contact: May cause dryness and irritation of the skin
Ingestion: Product will irritate the mucous membrane if swallowed.
Inhalation: Product inhaled may cause irritation to nasal and respiratory passages.
4. FIRST AID MEASURES
If in Eyes: Flush with cool water for 15 minutes. Remove contact lenses, if applicable and
continue flushing for 15 minutes. Hold eyelids apart to rinse the entire surface of
the eyes and lids. Seek medical attention if irritation persists.
If on Skin: Wash skin with soap and water. Seek medical attention if irritation persists.
If Swallowed: Do not induce vomiting, dilute with 1 to 2 glasses of water. Never give anything
to a person who is unconscious. Seek medical attention immediately.
If Inhaled: Remove to fresh air. If not breathing, call 9-1-1. Seek medical immediately.
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Page 2 of 4
5. FIRE FIGHTING MEASURES
Flash Point: Non-flammable. Flammable Limits: Not established.
Extinguishing Media: Considered non-combustible, use medium appropriate to surrounding fire,
water spray or fog, foam, carbon dioxide or dry chemical.
Special Fire Fighting Procedures: Provide for the protection of the employees and residents:
Notify local authorities that firemen should wear self-contained breathing apparatus with full
protecting clothing. If the product gets into a fire situation it is a source of free oxygen which is
an oxidizer.
See section 11 for toxicological data.
6. ACCIDENTAL RELEASE MEASURES
In Cases of Spill or Leak:
For small spills, wear proper personal protective equipment, sweep up and place into plastic
drum.
For large spill on roadside, contact emergency responders and secure area from anyone getting
contaminated with the mixture. Contact INFOTRAC 1-800-535-5053
7. HANDLING AND STORAGE
Use polyethylene or plastic containers. Store packaged product in a cool, dry place away from
everyone; children, food, feed and domestic animals. Prevent eating, drinking, tobacco usage,
and cosmetic application in areas where there is a potential for exposure to the material.
A lw a y s w a s h t h o r o u g hly after handling.
8. EXPOSURE CONTROLS / PERSONAL PROTECTION
Eye Protection: Chemical splash-proof goggles.
Skin Contact: To avoid skin contact, wear clean coveralls or longsleeved
shirt, and long pants. Wear chemical resistant
boots. Wear chemical resistant gloves.
Follow manufacturer’s instructions for cleaning and
maintaining PPE. If no such instructions for washing,
use detergent and hot water. Keep and wash PPE
separately from other laundry.
Respiratory Protection: Suggest wear NIOSH approved dust mask.
Ventilation Protection: Provide adequate ventilation.
9. PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
Appearance: White powder
Odor: Little odor
Solubility: Complete in water
Specific Gravity (H20) is 1.0): Greater than water
pH: Basic range (Alkaline)
Note: These physical data are typical values based on material tested but may vary
from sample to sample. Typical values should not be construed as a
guaranteed analysis of any specific lot or as specification items.
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Page 3 of 4
10. STABILITY AND REACTIVITY
Chemical Stability: Stable
Conditions to Avoid: Excessive heat, avoid aluminum and magnesium
metals.
Materials to avoid: Strong reducing agents, acids, aluminum and
magnesium metal
Hazardous Decomposition
Products: Mixture can produce hydrogen peroxide, oxygen and
product reacts with aluminum and magnesium metal.
11. TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Routes of entry: Eye, skin contact, inhalation and ingestion.
Eye Irritation: Strong irritation
Skin Irritation: Mild irritation
Inhalation: Strong irritation
Ingestion Strong irritation
Carcinogenicity: Not by listed by NTP, OSHA or IARC.
12. ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Not determined. Product is harmful to humans if swallowed.
Environmental fate not determined.
13. DISPOSAL CONSIDERATIONS
Steps to be taken if material is released or spilled.
Wear proper PPE found in section 8.
Use extreme caution; a person must be adequately trained to deal with a spill of this mixture.
Precautions to be taken in handling and storing
Protect from excessive heat. Mixture must be stored in a cool dry place.
14. TRANSPORTATION INFORMATION
Follow the precautions indicated in the Handling and Storage Section, Section 7 of this MSDS.
DOT Classification: Not regulated by US DOT by highway
IATA/ICAO Shipping Description: Call INFOTRAC for proper classification if shipping by air.
IMO Shipping Description: Call INFOTRAC for proper classification if shipping by water.
Marine Pollutant: Not a Marine Pollutant
Reportable Quantity: No RQs
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Page 4 of 4
15. REGULATORY INFORMATION
SARA Hazard Notification/Reporting
Immediate Y Fire N Sudden Release of Pressure Y
Delayed Y Reactive Y
SARA Title 313, Toxic chemicals: None
Section 302-304 (30 CFR 350): None
Extremely hazardous substance (EHS): None
SARA/OSHA Hazardous chemical reporting quantity: None.
RCRA Hazardous waste: None
Prop 65: Not listed
EUC
Safety phrases: S22, S26, S27, S36, S37, S39
Risk Phrases: R20, R21, R22, R34
16. OTHER
National Fire Protection Association (NFPA)
Hazardous Materials Identification System (HMIS)
NFPA HMIS
0 Least
2 Health 1 Slight 2 Health
0 Flammability 2 Moderate 0 Flammability
- 1 Instability 3 High 1 Reactivity
4 Severe H PPE
Prepared by: Dennis E. Belau Reviewed by: Jeff Schultz
Although the information and recommendations set forth herein (hereinafter "Information") are
presented in good faith and believed to be correct as of the date hereof, Austin Homebrew
Supply (hereafter “Company”) makes no representations as to the completeness or accuracy
thereof. Information is supplied upon the condition that the persons receiving same will make
their own determination as to its suitability for their purposes prior to use. In no event will
company be responsible for damages of any nature whatsoever resulting from the use of or
reliance upon Information. NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, EITHER
EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
PURPOSE OR OF ANY OTHER NATURE ARE MADE HEREUNDER WITH RESPECT TO
INFORMATION OR THE PRODUCT TO WHICH INFORMATION REFERS.

 

[jcdillin]

I can imagine using oxyclean on every batch of beer just to clean bottles. I only use it to remove labels and clean carboys that have a really bad ring. I've never had any issues with just triple rinsing when I do use it though.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Forrest,
My point is that sodium percarbonate becomes soda ash when it is re-hydrated. Percarbonate, in its anhydrous state, is a stable compound. When introduced with water it releases hydrogen peroxide and soda ash.

Pure percarbonate is classified as an oxidizer and is not able to be shipped without restriction by all of the small package carriers. As an oxidizer, pure percarbonate also shouldn't be sold to John Q. Public because of it's reactive nature. I was certain that your cleanitizer was not straight percarb for this reason.

Regarding cleanitizer, it DOES contain both percarbonate and soda ash (even though percarbonate becomes soda ash when water is added). It also contains sodium metasilicate. The metasilicate is a buffering agent that allows this compound to be used with soft metals like aluminum. If the metasilicate dries on a substrate like glass it will be next to impossible to remove, so in fact, cleanitizer is an inferior product to Oxiclean when cleaning any object made of glass including cleaning bottles.

Here's the M.S.D.S. for the cleanitizer

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Page 1 of 4

Why would you talk about Cleanitizer and show the MSDS for a different product called Ultimate Brewery Cleaner? Cleanitizer does not contain soda ash.

Let's talk about the Cleanitizer not the Ultimate Brewery Wash. Cleanitizer is not straight Percarbonate. The amount of soda ash that percarbonate leaves behind is minimal but Oxyclean is 50% soda ash it will need to be rinsed.
Forrest

 

[frankjones]

So.. Anyways... I have 48 good bottles with oxy clean tacky gritty like residue on them... How can I get the residue clean from inside the bottles? It takes a good scrub off the outside to get them smooth to the touch.

 

[UKDNA]

Personally, I am switching back to PBW. The Oxyclean works well, but is difficult to rinse completely and I think PBW does a better job anyway. The price difference is worth the piece of mind IMHO.

You mean 'Peace' of mind. I hate being that guy, but it's like deciding whether to tell someone a booger is hanging out of their nose when it's that obvious.

 

[UKDNA]

Bleach does that too.

 

[UKDNA]

As a molecular biologist who worked on RNA (that also means I've done all the run-of-the-mill bacteria work, etc.) I can tell you all that if your last step is rinsing with tap water or using the dish washer, you are completely wasting your money on start-San or San-blast or whatever trademark they're selling you.

If you want completely sterile, unreactive bottles, your last step needs to be something that sanitizes then evaporates, or if it doesn't evaporate, then rinsed with sterilized R.O. Water at the least. I swear it's like listening to a bunch of religions fight it out. Anecdotal evidence but anyone who tried to 'learn' anything does it in 5 minutes on the web.

If you are rinsing with other than sterile water, you're bottles aren't sterilized, period. In that case, which is most of the time, success or failure comes from the care given to the mechanical cleaning of the bottles. Tap water will always, always, no matter where you live or what you add, make things cling to the inner surface.