Oxidized Cascade APA in Bottle

[mchrispen]

Need help troubleshooting something. Recently submitted my APA to competition, and a bit confused by what happened. Both judges marked down oxidation as a major fault. I checked a bottle last night - and it was foul - clearly oxidized. Both judges noted perhaps there was a seal problem, however noted decent head and carbonation. Of course, the oxidation and lack of hop aroma completely unbalanced the flavors. AND my apologies to the judges. To be clear - my last sample after checking the judging sheets confirms their notes.

I split this batch half into keg (force carbed) and the other half into bottles and bottle conditioned. The early bottles I had were very good, but the hops in the bottle last night was completely gone and the beer was NOT good at all. The bottles are stored at room temperature - and I have a few left. I am trying to figure what actually happened.

The force carbed beer was fresh and very aromatic. Cascade being low AA, I used a lot of whole hops in the boil for an APA. Initially the beer tasted grassy, but over the next month or so - it mellowed out into a good beer. I didn't taste the bottles until after 1 month in bottle, but the initial bottles tasted good - if a bit different than the kegged. I assumed from the bottle conditioning.

Fermentation was in a closed and purged stainless vessel. Transfered to keg and into bottle bucket under Co2.

So question - I didn't taste the same cardboardy taste in the keg or in the early bottles. Clearly the submission bottles tasted horrible... and the beer I opened last night also tasted horrible. I assumed oxidation would have occured in the transfer into the bottle bucket, but some of the bottles came out fine. Also - if there was a bad seal - why decent carbonation?

Recipe is below, note I used a Belgian strain, not S-05 like normal but it didn't come forward. I am also wondering if the taste is possibly from the yeast. Phenols mixing with aging hops in the beer? Fairly lost where to improve process on this one...


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10.50 gal The Colony, Bastrop Texas - Aqua Water Water 1 -
13 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 57.8 %
4 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 17.8 %
4 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 4 17.8 %
1 lbs Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 5 4.4 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 6 2.2 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 7 16.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 8 9.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 9 7.5 IBUs
2.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 9.7 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafBrew Specialty Ale (DCL/Fermentis #T-58) [23.66 ml] Yeast 11 -

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.010 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.7 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.4 %
Bitterness: 42.9 IBUs Calories: 200.2 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 11.1 SRM
Mash Profile

Mash Name: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Light Body Total Grain Weight: 22 lbs 8.0 oz
Sparge Water: 7.24 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.20

Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Protein Rest Add 28.13 qt of water at 131.7 F 122.0 F 30 min
Saccharification Heat to 148.0 F over 15 min 148.0 F 75 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 168.0 F 10 min

Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Keg Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Pressure/Weight: 12.54 PSI Carbonation Used: Keg with 12.54 PSI
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 45.0 F Age for: 14.00 days
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage Storage Temperature: 65.0 F


Thanks, Matt

 

[daksin]

I have an old bottling wand that really splashes the beer out and froths up when bottling, so that could be it. Also, if you had a loose connection between your bottling spigot and the hose to the bottling wand, you could have been sucking in air there via the venturi effect and oxidizing some of your bottles. It is very weird that only some of your bottles were oxidized. Are you getting marked off for low bottle fills at all? Excess headspace could also be a culprit.

 

[mchrispen]

Good point on the wand. Explains - possibly - the inconsistency. My bottling setup is the as described in the bottling sticky, but cheap enough to replace. Perhaps tighter up with clamps on the hose.

I have a brew in primary that I intend to split in the same fashion, maybe I can keg condition have and force carb the other. I haven't setup my counter pressure bottling rig yet. Time to put it into practice.

Anyone have a general idea how long oxidation takes to present in bottle conditioning? I assumed it would show up more quickly.

 

[mchrispen]

Since my last post, I have had a couple of new bottles.

I don't have early tasting notes from the first couple of bottles. However, I have in the last few days cracked open a couple of 12 oz bottles... and see many of the flaws that were noted earlier.

I have also opened a couple (I have just 2 left) of 750Ml bottles - and they are quite fresh and nice. The last two 12 oz. were not very good - the 750's excellent if on the downside of the hop character. These are 6 months old.

Definately something different between the aging 12 oz and 750 ml. Perhaps some difference with the wand, but perhaps not. I checked my wand system and see no significant leaks - which doesn't rule out problems in bottling at the time. I did add clamps to make sure no air gets into the system.

A guess, but not positive, is that I may not have rinsed the 12 oz bottles as well as the others. I typically clean in OxyClean, rinse well and then run through the dishwasher with the "sanitize" feature enabled. It heats things up - allegedly to kill any additional bugs. I am wondering if I failed to adequately rinse the Oxy out of half of the smaller bottles?

Has anyone had oxidation issues potentially from poorly rinsed application of OxyClean?

 

[duboman]

Since my last post, I have had a couple of new bottles.

I don't have early tasting notes from the first couple of bottles. However, I have in the last few days cracked open a couple of 12 oz bottles... and see many of the flaws that were noted earlier.

I have also opened a couple (I have just 2 left) of 750Ml bottles - and they are quite fresh and nice. The last two 12 oz. were not very good - the 750's excellent if on the downside of the hop character. These are 6 months old.

Definately something different between the aging 12 oz and 750 ml. Perhaps some difference with the wand, but perhaps not. I checked my wand system and see no significant leaks - which doesn't rule out problems in bottling at the time. I did add clamps to make sure no air gets into the system.

A guess, but not positive, is that I may not have rinsed the 12 oz bottles as well as the others. I typically clean in OxyClean, rinse well and then run through the dishwasher with the "sanitize" feature enabled. It heats things up - allegedly to kill any additional bugs. I am wondering if I failed to adequately rinse the Oxy out of half of the smaller bottles?

Has anyone had oxidation issues potentially from poorly rinsed application of OxyClean?

It's quite possible, many people have reported mixed results using a dishwasher as the water has a difficult time getting up into the bottle. Might I recommend you do this by hand and begin using Star San instead. Also, if you thoroughly rinse your bottles after a pour and store upside down you really just need to give a quick rinse and dunk in star San prior to bottling. Don't forget the caps too.

 

[daksin]

It's quite possible, many people have reported mixed results using a dishwasher as the water has a difficult time getting up into the bottle. Might I recommend you do this by hand and begin using Star San instead. Also, if you thoroughly rinse your bottles after a pour and store upside down you really just need to give a quick rinse and dunk in star San prior to bottling. Don't forget the caps too.

It sounds like he rinsed the bottles before putting them in the dishwasher, but yes, it's true that a dishwasher really won't get any water INTO your bottles, though it will heat them enough on the sanitize setting to kill most microbes. I do three quick rinses with cold water (inside the bottles) in my tub after an oxyclean soak and have never had a problem.

It'd be an interesting experiment to do, with the oxyclean, but I feel like the soapiness would be way more apparent than oxidation. I really have no way of knowing, though.

 

[duboman]

It sounds like he rinsed the bottles before putting them in the dishwasher, but yes, it's true that a dishwasher really won't get any water INTO your bottles, though it will heat them enough on the sanitize setting to kill most microbes. I do three quick rinses with cold water (inside the bottles) in my tub after an oxyclean soak and have never had a problem.

It'd be an interesting experiment to do, with the oxyclean, but I feel like the soapiness would be way more apparent than oxidation. I really have no way of knowing, though.

True, although I'm not sure the oxidation critique is due to this because the OP stated that some bottles have been fine so whatever the problem is, it seems to be certain bottles and not others. This leads me to believe that something in the cleaning/sanitizing process is off. If it had to do with a transfer issue all bottles would be oxidized by the batch.

 

[mchrispen]

So I have gone back through my dry bottles. It appears that between myself and my wife, we are not handling the cleaning side as well as I thought. I found several bottles with visible traces of white film, most likely from unrinsed OXY. It is not soapy and is flavorless, but perhaps a bit astringent. I have no evidence this is what caused the oxidation, but certainly of concern in my cleaning and sanitation regiment.

When bottling, every bottle gets a StarSan soak. I am religious about this after a couple of bottle bombs several years ago. I drain them upside down, and bottle into StarSan bubbles. I am also careful about proper headspace, and this has not been an issue in the past.


So clearly I need to do a few things:
1. Wash and rinse the bottles thoroughly after use - and not get lazy about it. I store them upside down in plastic bottle bins that are covered so no dust gets into the way. As a last step, I will likely continue to use the dishwasher to sanitize, but now worried that perhaps some residual detergent might be playing a game here.
2. Rack much more carefully into my (clean and sanitary) bottle bucket, and make sure there are no leaks with the bottling wand. Also - should consider just bottling from keg. I have the system, just been lazy in getting it setup and working. Also make sure adequate sanitation of the caps.
3. Continue to bottle onto StarSan foam in the bottles, but after they have drained adequately.

My conclusion is that somewhere between poor bottle management and bottling technique, I somehow oxidized a few of the beers. I still very much like bottle conditioned beers - especially with Belgians. I guess I could also limit that process to only the right styles and bottle others from keg after force carb (or keg conditioned for that matter).

The comment about an experiment with Oxy is interesting. I was only suggesting that o2 based cleaners and detergents, if not rinsed properly may provide additional oxygen release in the bottle, even under pressure - and become a source of oxidation. I am not sure how the experiment could be replicated adequately. It breaks down into hydrogen peroxide and sodium chlorate which I assume would react poorly with the proteins and alpha acids in the beer, and further breaks into soda ash and oxygen. Not a chemist, so I could be dead wrong.

I had another bottle last night that tasted decent, however most of the hops aroma was gone. Seems they are either good - or just plain foul. Going to get the pressure bottler going this weekend. If it's really easier - then that may be the way to go in the future.

Thanks for the help!