oxidation problems when dry hopping

[day_trippr]

...

 

[Weezy]

It does happen so much quicker when oxidation is involved though, aroma can be wrecked without any noticeable cardboard flavors though.

Acid hydrolysis is other mechanism by which hop aroma is destroyed but that is much slower than oxidation.

If you are careful and introduce significant oxidation you can have a stable aroma for 6 weeks or so before I see a notable fall off.

If oxygen get in, the beer is have lost its aroma even before serving.

We're talking cold side here. Where is oxygen getting in? The polyphenols contributed by post boil hop oils is what we like and what is hampered by natural degradation and occasion. Where are we letting oxygen in post kegging???

I really appreciate that you guys are embracing to the benefits of LODO brewing, but oxidation is not the panacea of all brewing woes.

 

[schematix]

I mean this guy, really? You have never tasted the beers mentioned or my beers either but you have the nerve to knock them, even going so far to say that the competitions he won must have had a bunch of bad beers. You act like your gods gift to brewing, get over yourself. Everyone else is trying to help the OP figure out why his beers are SEVERLY oxidizing, which again is probably not due to HSA but something off in his process and your just complicating things. You must learn to walk before you run. I just won best in show for my DIPA but I'm sure it must be because it was going up against garbage beers or had unqualified judges. I hope you entered the NHC because you obviously make the best beers in the world and should win in a landslide.

I didn't knock his beers. He was essentially arguing that his methods were more than sufficient because he's won medals in competition. I don't believe that is a logically sound conclusion.

My comment was that just because you won a medal doesn't actually mean much because a competition is only a contest among those that participated. It doesn't say anything about the caliber of the participants, or by extension, the absolute quality of winning entries. It's entirely possible to win a gold metal in a competition with a 30 point beer.... do you think a beer scoring 30 in a competition is really a great beer?

 

[Stillraining]

Loss of hop flavor is primarily due to oxidation.

I made a low oxygen IPA about 5 months ago and its still friggin' amazing (life changing actually). I've made a lot of IPAs before, but never one low oxygen, and never had one worth a crap after even a month. It's a decent amount more work and can take some more equipment, but low oxygen brewing is what you want to get to the next level.

The process is roughly:
1. Pre boil mash water for 5 minutes.
2. Immediately chill to strike temp and add sodium meta bisulfate to the mash water.
3. Underlet the mash (fill from below). Mash as usual but ensure if you recirc that all connecions are leak free.
4. Boil gently
5. Oxygenate and pitch plenty of healthy yeast.
6. Dry hop with gravity points remaining (*this is the part 1 of the trick)
7. When ready to keg add priming sugar to primary. Wait for fermentation to restart 1 hour or so.
8. Rack to serving keg and seal. Monitor pressure. About 2 weeks later chill and you're ready to go. (*this is part 2 of the trick).

OK so how stuffed up is the process if I didn't have the sodium meta bisulfate? ( Thought I did but could not find it) I did every thing else by you instructions so far.

 

[schematix]

OK so how stuffed up is the process if I didn't have the sodium meta bisulfate? ( Thought I did but could not find it) I did every thing else by you instructions so far.

The SMB is your insurance...potassium metabisulfate (campden tablets) can be subbed at lower doses.

Could you smell your mash?

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

I didn't knock his beers. He was essentially arguing that his methods were more than sufficient because he's won medals in competition. I don't believe that is a logically sound conclusion.

My comment was that just because you won a medal doesn't actually mean much because a competition is only a contest among those that participated. It doesn't say anything about the caliber of the participants, or by extension, the absolute quality of winning entries. It's entirely possible to win a gold metal in a competition with a 30 point beer.... do you think a beer scoring 30 in a competition is really a great beer?

That's making lots of assumptions, doubt he would place high with a 30. Did you read the original post, they are not complaining about not winning competitions, the beer was going from gold to brown. You obviously don't get it so I'm done with this.

 

[schematix]

That's making lots of assumptions, doubt he would place high with a 30. Did you read the original post, they are not complaining about not winning competitions, the beer was going from gold to brown. You obviously don't get it so I'm done with this.

Derp. The subject of the post in question was not directly in reference to the OP. We were talking about a related, but different post by someone else.

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

**** off schematix

 

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[Stillraining]

The SMB is your insurance...potassium metabisulfate (campden tablets) can be subbed at lower doses.

Could you smell your mash?

I had those...didn't know it would do the same. Yes I could smell it just fine. Well I might have to retract that as not 100% sure...I did not really try to smell it I only opened it twice to make sure the grains were covered mashing in and once again on 3 running's...There was 2 other mash tuns on either side so the smell could have been from them as well. Why?

 

[schematix]

I had those...didn't know it would do the same. Yes I could smell it just fine. Well I might have to retract that as not 100% sure...I did not really try to smell it I only opened it twice to make sure the grains were covered mashing in and once again on 3 running's...There was 2 other mash tuns on either side so the smell could have been from them as well. Why?

One of the best sensory identifiers to know that you've succeeded at a low oxygen mash is that it's odorless. For normal oxygen home brewers you know that mash smell very well, but in low oxygen its non-existent. The second is when you taste the unboiled wort sample you'll know you've done something different. It's unusually sweet, grainy and delicious. It's not unusual to drink the hydrometer sample and actually like it.

Always taste the unboiled wort sample in low oxygen brewing. It'll confirm everything for you. No need to triangle test anything. It's night and day obvious when you've succeeded.

 

[Stillraining]

I dont know if any of this LODO is helping the OP with Ideas on his discoloring issues with his beer or not but for him I say be open to everything till he figures it out. So I'm going to go ahead and ask you a couple more questions just so myself and or others can understand some of the nuance's better, tweaking this elaborate process to the home brew level.
I had read that article when it came out...I reread it last night. One thing that even the article was not clear on was multiple batch sparging.

So :
1) Is this process intended for multiple sparging processes.
2) Other then covering the top of the mash with a cap/sheat of oxygen impervious material are you not suppose to drain each sparge completely?
3) Because if you do your definitely nullifying the whole process.
4) And if you do your definitely going to be able to smell the grains in the resulting escaping steam from that grain bed, I dont care what science says otherwise.
5) Seem to me a floating sparge arm would need to be employed to constantly have a whetted cover of water or a grain free zone always on top of the grain bed. Much as you do in normal fly sparging, but in this case it would not be allowed to splash the water you so painstakingly devoided of said oxygen.
6) Thus batch sparging is not really an option with this method. At least not multiple times as I see it. As each sparge is basically draining that protection and then re-pushing induced oxygen back up out of the wort that we are supposed to be so carefully avoiding contact with. Considering the statements that damage is already done withing 30 sec to 1 min there is no way for myself or the OP to accomplish this.

Just seems that there are a lot of weak links in the chain for this to really work as described. To me it seems you go all the way or its counter productive.

 

[Queequeg]

We're talking cold side here. Where is oxygen getting in? The polyphenols contributed by post boil hop oils is what we like and what is hampered by natural degradation and occasion. Where are we letting oxygen in post kegging???

I really appreciate that you guys are embracing to the benefits of LODO brewing, but oxidation is not the panacea of all brewing woes.

I don't disagree that LODO is not a cure all, just that oxidation has by far the greatest impact of flavor stability especially in hoppy beers and that the levels of DO required are extremely low. Whilst other processes cause flavor instability they occur at a much slower rate, so much so that they don't usually manifest before the beer in completely drunk.

 

[Stillraining]

One of the best sensory identifiers to know that you've succeeded at a low oxygen mash is that it's odorless. For normal oxygen home brewers you know that mash smell very well, but in low oxygen its non-existent. The second is when you taste the unboiled wort sample you'll know you've done something different. It's unusually sweet, grainy and delicious. It's not unusual to drink the hydrometer sample and actually like it.

Always taste the unboiled wort sample in low oxygen brewing. It'll confirm everything for you. No need to triangle test anything. It's night and day obvious when you've succeeded.

Quoted you just to notify of above questions. Thanks

 

[schematix]

Sorry for the slow reply... painting and crown moulding project this weekend....

I dont know if any of this LODO is helping the OP with Ideas on his discoloring issues with his beer or not but for him I say be open to everything till he figures it out. So I'm going to go ahead and ask you a couple more questions just so myself and or others can understand some of the nuance's better, tweaking this elaborate process to the home brew level.
I had read that article when it came out...I reread it last night. One thing that even the article was not clear on was multiple batch sparging.

So :
1) Is this process intended for multiple sparging processes.
2) Other then covering the top of the mash with a cap/sheat of oxygen impervious material are you not suppose to drain each sparge completely?
3) Because if you do your definitely nullifying the whole process.
4) And if you do your definitely going to be able to smell the grains in the resulting escaping steam from that grain bed, I dont care what science says otherwise.
5) Seem to me a floating sparge arm would need to be employed to constantly have a whetted cover of water or a grain free zone always on top of the grain bed. Much as you do in normal fly sparging, but in this case it would not be allowed to splash the water you so painstakingly devoided of said oxygen.
6) Thus batch sparging is not really an option with this method. At least not multiple times as I see it. As each sparge is basically draining that protection and then re-pushing induced oxygen back up out of the wort that we are supposed to be so carefully avoiding contact with. Considering the statements that damage is already done withing 30 sec to 1 min there is no way for myself or the OP to accomplish this.

Just seems that there are a lot of weak links in the chain for this to really work as described. To me it seems you go all the way or its counter productive.

Yah batch sparging is no good here. The best is a full volume no-sparge mash. Second best would be a traditional fly sparge. The sparge water needs to be treated like the mash water too but a lower sulfite level is ok since it's not exposed as long.

And you are correct this is a weak link process. If you go through all the effort on the hot side to prevent oxidation, but then skip on the cold side, you are just wasting your time.

Limiting oxidation on the hot side will give you a better grain flavor, but your cold side i think is actually more important for long term stability and flavor. Even if you ignore all the HSA stuff you will notice an improvement in your beer from low oxygen cold side processes.

 

[Stillraining]

Sort of what I figured...thanks

Well I'm out, for now anyway..Not worth it to me.....hope the OP figures out his issue.
And again my advice to him and all others that are having this issue "if" this is only happening to the so called NEIPA style is to ....Quit brewing them. The lines are so blurred anymore with IPA's anyway what difference does it make. Its supper easy to make a smooth IPA with out the offending grains that are seeming to point to causing this issue.

Carry on!

 

[PearlJam]

Does the guys who have oxidation issues closely monitor and manage their mash ph?

I am also having this issue and in the process of trying to figure it out. The current issue I am investigating is mash ph due to the lipoxygenase enzyme which is apparently a key part of oxidation. If the ph is too high it appears that the enzyme are more active.

My tap water that I normally use is ph 8.0

 

[Hudini56]

Going back to the beginning of the post, that was my big thing. Water adjustments are huge imo. Or at least for my situation. I think my home brewing world flipped up side down when I started making water adjustments. I'm interested in lodo.. but start small! My first batch with water adjustments after a ward water test was a HUGE improvement. And I was having all the same issues as the OP.

My pH is 7.5.. with adjustments via salts I can get to 5.3 or so using bru n water calculator.. worth every bit of the money time and effort.

It seems to be a bit overlooked.

Hopefully the OP takes a bit of all the info in this thread and gets some improvements.. seemed to get a little side tracked with the lodo convo. Which is great, but I don't think it's the OP's issue at this point.

 

[HopHead73]

Loss of hop flavor is primarily due to oxidation.

I made a low oxygen IPA about 5 months ago and its still friggin' amazing (life changing actually). I've made a lot of IPAs before, but never one low oxygen, and never had one worth a crap after even a month. It's a decent amount more work and can take some more equipment, but low oxygen brewing is what you want to get to the next level.

The process is roughly:
1. Pre boil mash water for 5 minutes.
2. Immediately chill to strike temp and add sodium meta bisulfate to the mash water.
3. Underlet the mash (fill from below). Mash as usual but ensure if you recirc that all connecions are leak free.
4. Boil gently
5. Oxygenate and pitch plenty of healthy yeast.
6. Dry hop with gravity points remaining (*this is the part 1 of the trick)
7. When ready to keg add priming sugar to primary. Wait for fermentation to restart 1 hour or so.
8. Rack to serving keg and seal. Monitor pressure. About 2 weeks later chill and you're ready to go. (*this is part 2 of the trick).

Reviving an old thread.
I have issues with oxidation of my heavily dry hopped ales.
Am going to move my first hop addition sooner so there is more active yeast to scrub out the O2.
But, I am also researching more about doing a pressurized transfer from carboy to keg with a 2nd dry hop addition in the keg and have found many mention adding sugar to get the remaining active yeast going to scrub out any O2 introduced with the 2nd dry hop addition.

Your method is more of what I'm looking for.
Wondering after around how many days of fermentation do you transfer to the keg with sugar added?
It's been years since I bottled, so I'm assuming about 12 days there should still be enough yeast to start back up again.

 

[schematix]

Reviving an old thread.
Wondering after around how many days of fermentation do you transfer to the keg with sugar added?
It's been years since I bottled, so I'm assuming about 12 days there should still be enough yeast to start back up again.

It all depends on when the beer is done fermenting. I'm usually done fermenting, dry hopping, and into the final serving keg in around 7 days for moderate strength ale. My temperature control and pitching is really good though.

 

[Queequeg]

Though hop polyphenols are naturally unstable, there stability significantly decreases with DO so they are definitely interrelated.

For my ipa's I keep DO as low as possible AND I keg hop.

I am also considering a hop randelizer

 

[marjen]

Wondering to the original poster and anyone else having this problem if you are doing all grain or extract brewing?

When I first started brewing a couple months ago I made 2 extract batches. Both tasted ok when first legged but very quickly turned a brownish color and started tasting weird.

I have since made 4 all grain batches. All four tasted great and have held up fine in the keg until they were kicked, which has been 2-3 weeks so far.

Not saying it is the issue, but the rest of my process stayed the same. I dry hop during active formation and do closed transfers via CO2. So might be something to consider.

 

[malhal]

I think we've established the larger than usual amount of raw dry-hop particulate goes off because of contact with air, just like a cut apple exposed to air does. The question is how to prevent air at the bottling stage? Is it the auto-syphon that is bubbling in air or is it just the air in bottle headroom. Could any of these fix it? Switching from auto-syphon back to regular syphon, purging bottles, using anti-oxidation bottle caps, filling to brim of bottles, using plastic bottles squeezed and filled to brim which regain shape during conditioning. Or just forget dry-hopping and put all the hops in the hop-stand and stand for longer to get all the flavour in (i.e. cooked hops that won't go bad).

 

[malhal]

My problem was I didn’t have a mesh filter over the syphon inside the fermentor so some hop matter got in the bottles and ruined it.

 

[IslandLizard]

My problem was I didn’t have a mesh filter over the syphon inside the fermentor so some hop matter got in the bottles and ruined it.

Haven't the hop particles settled on the bottom of the bottles? Just pour slowly, steadily, and carefully without any glugging, then tilt back quickly when sediment starts to reach the shoulder. If the hop bits are still suspended, just pour your beer through a fine mesh strainer. No shame in that.

When racking:

• Use one of those inverter tippies on the bottom of your siphon.
• Don't stick the siphon all the way down on the bottom.
• Start siphoning from the middle, between the bottom and the beer level.
• In a bucket, a siphon clamp can help keeping your siphon along the side at the same time.
• Then lower the siphon slowly as the beer level drops.
• When about a gallon is left, slowly tilt the fermentor toward the siphon so you keep a relatively deep well to siphon beer from.
• When the beer level drops close to the trub, or any trub starts to get sucked up, quickly pull the end of the hose out of the receiving vessel to stop the siphon.