Oxiclean and plastic

[corncob]

Because if you aren't coming behind the soak with mechanical scrubbing, you want to make totally sure that all solids have dissolved completely. Also, I suspect most of us are using pretty dilute cleaning solutions already, so the water alone is doing most of the work. It makes perfect sense. It's reliable. It has a great track record. It's cheap. It's convenient. It's impossible to mess up. Etc.

 

[worlddivides]

Because if you aren't coming behind the soak with mechanical scrubbing, you want to make totally sure that all solids have dissolved completely. Also, I suspect most of us are using pretty dilute cleaning solutions already, so the water alone is doing most of the work. It makes perfect sense. It's reliable. It has a great track record. It's cheap. It's convenient. It's impossible to mess up. Etc.

I do kind of still worry about this, but your post up above did make me a bit more relieved about it. With PBW, I only washed once with PBW, then rinsed once with water, then thoroughly wiped down with paper towels. With Oxiclean, I wash once with Oxiclean, rinse 3-4 times with water, then thoroughly wipe down with paper towels, but I feel like I could probably get away with just washing once with water, then thoroughly wiping down with paper towels if it's the same contents as PBW but just with a few things missing. I'll also add that technically I "rinse" a bit more than that since I usually do a sanitizer (StarSan or StellarSan solution) either immediately afterwards or a few days afterwards, though I don't wipe that down afterwards since I want the sanitizing power to remain (plus that's how they say to use them, often saying that StarSan/StellarSan foam contains nutrients for yeast).

 

[ncbrewer]

Find other credible sources of information. There are a few links above for starters. People shouldn't automatically trust what's written by random unknown people on online public domain forums and "social media". It's a scourge of modern living.

I don't automatically trust the Kegland statement - I checked with several sources. The others were all ok with using PBW for cleaning plastics, with no mention of problems with soaking. But none directly addressed the issue that Kegland mentioned. Since OxiClean works well, I plan to use it for now and not have the worry about degrading the plastic. I'll be watching for any future information about the subject.

 

[Peebee]

Because if you aren't coming behind the soak with mechanical scrubbing, you want to make totally sure that all solids have dissolved completely. ...

Humm ... I wondered if you'd see my post as treading on your toes. I did think I was safe after you said:

It's pushing 4 hours and I'm pretty sure that if I rinsed aggressively now, , I would have a clean fermenter. ...

... which I took as backup for what I was proclaiming: "Don't soak" (excessively).

To be honest, I do soak, but not as a policy ... just I can't be bothered to finish the job just at that time. But there are hazards! And contrary to your statement "It's impossible to mess up" there are people out there who will take this as reassurance to continue their practice of soaking their expensive PET fermenter in PBW. "Well, it's only a weak solution" they'll think, and they'll one day use it for "pressure fermenting", and ...

You might have only been referring to using pure water. But it doesn't come across that way.

I've been learning from this thread. I don't use Sodium Metasilicate but was taking precautions that turn out to be targeted at only Metasilicate. I can ease off the restrictions I was forcing on myself.

The conclusions should come over very strongly. Don't soak PET or Polycarbonate in PBW. In fact, unless you're absolutely sure, don't soak anything in in a chemical cleaner (however diluted).

 

[Peebee]

The others were all ok with using PBW for cleaning plastics, with no mention of problems with soaking ...

Scary isn't it! Yet they've known for months there was a problem cleaning Tilt hydrometers with these compounds. I've only learnt myself in the past couple of days that the "bogeyman" is Sodium Metasilicate; something we don't even need except for very specific circumstances.

 

[hotbeer]

Not certain why y'all are having issues cleaning your Tilt's. I just rinse mine off when I take it out of the FV and let it dry. Sanitize on brew day. I use iodophor, but I'm sure StarSan should do just as well.

I have not had any infection.

 

[Peebee]

Not certain why y'all are having issues cleaning your Tilt's

I think it was just me! I only bought it up 'cos everyone was talking about PET, and Tilt shells are polycarbonate. And you're advised not to soak Tilts in PBW. You're doing the right thing by them, so no concerns.

 

[corncob]

For the record, I cleaned that fermzilla Saturday morning, and it's still soaking.

 

[corncob]

I hope to finish it tomorrow after work, but who knows....

 

[Snowkiwi]

Just my two cents worth, but there are some members talking about "Oxiclean" and others talking "Oxyclean", two different products, two different MSDS Sheets. Just saying!

 

[doug293cz]

Just my two cents worth, but there are some members talking about "Oxiclean" and others talking "Oxyclean", two different products, two different MSDS Sheets. Just saying!

Got a link for Oxyclean? I come up empty when doing a search (not actually empty, but all results are for Oxiclean.)

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

I wager most here are actually using Oxi Clean Free...

 

[Snowkiwi]

Got a link for Oxyclean? I come up empty when doing a search (not actually empty, but all results are for Oxiclean.)

Brew on

https://phoenixproductsco.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Oxy-Clean-0210.pdf

 

[day_trippr]

That product is for "shocking" pools, not cleaning fermenters

Cheers!

 

[Nagorg]

I'm pretty sure that my old Better Bottles developed cracks from soaking in PBW, probably too long...

 

[hotbeer]

Oxiclean. Interesting how that i becomes so apparent now that it's been pointed out.

I've been spelling it incorrectly for 2 decades or more!

 

[doug293cz]

Oxiclean. Interesting how that i becomes so apparent now that it's been pointed out.

I've been spelling it incorrectly for 2 decades or more!

I'm sure I've spelled the common cleaning product wrong many times myself over the years. If only that was the worst mistake I've made in my life.

Brew on

 

[Peebee]

That product is for "shocking" pools, not cleaning fermenters

I'm sure pools see lots of "shocking" things, don't know why'd they require a special product?


Anyway, it is based on sodium carbonate (not the more active percarbonate) plus a load of incomprehensible stuff. I think everyone knows what they want asking for Oxyclean (sic - Oxiclean being more precise). It's far less complicated just getting the generic stuff which is called "Sodium Percarbonate", contains only "Sodium Percarbonate" (no sodium metasilicate) and is cheaper too. We're not house ... err .... persons? We shouldn't need fancy names and fancy packets (which we have to pay fancy prices for!).

And making silly spelling mistakes (which I suspect I'm guilty of too) which probably stems from "English" refusing to recognise "Y" as a vowel ... you're mostly American, I'm Welsh, and the English ... are in the minority! (Personal grumbling subject ... sorry! Well, I'm getting old and I like grumbling.).

Caution: You can purchase Sodium Percarbonate in large quantities. I get 25Kg sacks (unblocks sinks, cleans dishwashers more effectively, will even clean your driveway!). If it's not looked after and gets wet, it evolves loads of oxygen. Not in itself a hazard, but if it's stored with combustible stuff that then catches light (which it'll do more easily), the extra oxygen results in a very intense fire.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Just my two cents worth, but there are some members talking about "Oxiclean" and others talking "Oxyclean", two different products, two different MSDS Sheets. Just saying!

Where are you seeing this? I tried a google and can't find it. I find a lot of spelling mistakes "Oxyclean" instead of the correct "Oxiclean" though.

 

[worlddivides]

I wager most here are actually using Oxi Clean Free...

View attachment 857464

I'm assuming that's what I'm using. It has the "OXICLEAN" logo, but does not have the word "FREE." It does say "No dyes or perfumes" in Japanese, though.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm sure pools see lots of "shocking" things, don't know why'd they require a special product?

Well, for one, there's the whole notion of "food safe" cleansers, which pool shock is not.
Do a minute of research on that stuff and you'll see it wasn't intended for use on things that produce products for human consumption...

Cheers!

 

[worlddivides]

I need a kind of sanity check. I just tried my new beer for the first time since kegging and carbing it, and I had the feeling like my fingers were tingling. My first thought that maybe there was some Oxiclean residue in there causing it, though I washed the keg out something like three or four times with water before I eventually filled it up with StellarSan solution and pumped that out the beer line via CO2, so logically speaking, even if there was still some residue left in there, it should be so watered down that it shouldn't have any effects. Plus, Oxiclean Free is just two ingredients, which happen to be the same main ingredients in PBW, which I never washed as much and never had any issues. My girlfriend also tasted the beer and drank more of it than I did and said it tasted great and she didn't have any of the tingling I mentioned, so I'm probably just worrying about nothing. Plus, if the tingling was caused by something in the beer, that's not a symptom I saw online (usually being stuff like nausea, of which I had none).

The tingling is long gone, but I do wonder about this kind of stuff and am still not fully relieved, despite my girlfriend drinking about 5 times more than I did and saying she's fine (if you're wondering, I didn't use Oxiclean until this batch, though I've used PBW on equipment for hundreds of gallons of beer). Lets say someone didn't wash their keg with water 4 times like I did. Let's say they just dumped the Oxiclean out and didn't rinse it with water but did rinse it with StarSan/StellarSan solution, then drank a beer out of it. Would that then be dangerous? In particular I wonder because I have to imagine there are tons of homebrewers out there who wash with PBW and rinse way less than me.

 

[T Murph]

I don't know from a scientific point of view if my practice is correct or not but my beers are fine and I've never had an adverse reaction to any of it. But I make a homemade version of PBW by adding 30% TSP to 70% Oxiclean. I use Sanke Sixtel kegs and never take them apart to clean and sanitize them. I first flush them with hot water followed by two rounds of PBW. The first PBW wash does the first cleanse then I do a second round of PBW to clean anything that may be left behind. Next I rinse with hot water one more time followed by two rounds of Star San.

In some instances if a keg kicks immediately before time to transfer its replacement I don't clean it at all. I simply transfer the new beer into the keg and chunk it into the kegerator.

 

[worlddivides]

I don't know from a scientific point of view if my practice is correct or not but my beers are fine and I've never had an adverse reaction to any of it. But I make a homemade version of PBW by adding 30% TSP to 70% Oxiclean. I use Sanke Sixtel kegs and never take them apart to clean and sanitize them. I first flush them with hot water followed by two rounds of PBW. The first PBW wash does the first cleanse then I do a second round of PBW to clean anything that may be left behind. Next I rinse with hot water one more time followed by two rounds of Star San.

In some instances if a keg kicks immediately before time to transfer its replacement I don't clean it at all. I simply transfer the new beer into the keg and chunk it into the kegerator.

I wanted to take apart my keg and clean the individual parts and I finally found the right size wrench for the unconventional keg posts on my corny keg, but I couldn't get them to come off, so I just flushed them with hot water mixed with Oxiclean, then later cold water mixed with StellarSan. Rinsed with water multiple times between each. I wipe down my fermenter with paper towels, but I don't wipe down my keg.

To be honest, I'd heard about people like yourself who sometimes just transfer a new beer into a keg without cleaning it, so I know that's not too rare.

I do feel like I'm being overly paranoid about something I really shouldn't be, but I just wonder "What might happen if there's still some amount of Oxiclean left in the keg that I can't see that's gotten into my beer?"

 

[T Murph]

@worlddivides I don't have an issue with residual Oxiclean/PBW because I do a double rinse with hot water then a starsan rinse to sanitize it. Hasn't failed me yet.

 

[worlddivides]

@worlddivides I don't have an issue with residual Oxiclean/PBW because I do a double rinse with hot water then a starsan rinse to sanitize it. Hasn't failed me yet.

I haven't rinsed with hot water, though it might be a good idea to do one rinse with hot water just for peace of mind. I typically rinse 3-4 times with tap temperature water, and then either immediately afterwards soak in StarSan/StellarSan for 10-15 minutes, then remove all the sanitizer solution with no rinse, or I do the sanitizing several days later (since I might clean stuff several days before transferring the beer, whereas I only sanitize immediately before transferring the beer).

I have no idea if there's any residual Oxiclean or if I'm just imagining things. (and even if I'm not imagining things, Oxiclean very likely might not be the reason)

 

[day_trippr]

Same as with PBW, I've found one needs to use at least as hot a rinse water as the wash water, otherwise stuff stays "plated" to the substrate...

Cheers!

 

[worlddivides]

Same as with PBW, I've found one needs to use at least as hot a rinse water as the wash water, otherwise stuff stays "plated" to the substrate...

Cheers!

Is that dangerous? Though I did rinse 3-4 times for the fermenter and 3-4 times with the keg, it was with room temperature water, so I suppose there could be some invisible layer of Oxiclean... at least in the keg. I did wipe down the fermenter with paper towels thoroughly, but I only rinsed with water (and later with sanitizer solution) for the keg. I would assume that such a small amount diluted in 11 liters of beer might not be something to worry about, but I do tend on the paranoid side (as folks might have noticed by now, haha).

Even if it is safe, I'll make sure to use at least 1 rinse of hot water for the fermenter and keg going forward.


EDIT: I just read about 15 threads on the subject from the past 20+ years on Reddit, HBT, and a few other websites, and most of the questions seemed to be about whether it'd be safe to drink beer that was racked into a vessel that had been washed with PBW and not rinsed at all. Five Star says it would taste awful and that it might not be safe in that case. Lots of people online say that it should be diluted enough to be safe, but to be careful. In my case, I actually did rinse it out a ton (with a total of maybe 30-45 liters of water / 8 to 12 gallons), then did StellarSan solution. And the beer does not taste remotely odd. No off flavors or odd smells. It actually tastes amazing. I'm probably just being paranoid and the tingling I experienced has nothing to do with the beer...

 

[day_trippr]

I'm probably just being paranoid and the tingling I experienced has nothing to do with the beer...

That was my guess from the start, fwiw. Just doesn't seem likely what you felt was from the cleaning.
And no, I don't think a hot clean/cold rinse would result in anything actually dangerous as long as we're talking about PBW or Oxiclean or equivalents...

Cheers!

 

[worlddivides]

That was my guess from the start, fwiw. Just doesn't seem likely what you felt was from the cleaning.
And no, I don't think a hot clean/cold rinse would result in anything actually dangerous as long as we're talking about PBW or Oxiclean or equivalents...

Cheers!

So I'm pretty sure the tingling IS from the beer (I drank the beer again yesterday and got the exact same tingling as before; this time my girlfriend also said she felt some tingling after trying it, but she said she always has tingling in her hands or feet whenever she drinks any kind of alcohol, which I found a little odd, but okay), but as both seen in this thread and other threads I read online, it seems incredibly unlikely that it has anything to do with Oxiclean (both because any residue would be miniscule and because the symptoms I felt after drinking it are unlike any of the symptoms associated with consuming sodium percarbonate).

I really have no idea what is causing the tingling. I've made hundreds of gallons of beer by now and I've never had a beer cause a tingling sensation before. After I stop drinking, the tingling lasts for a few hours and then goes away with no lingering symptoms, but it has me unsettled, so I'm thinking I might just dump the batch to be on the safe side. It smells and tastes great, which makes this more of a shame, but I've had 3 separate times where drinking it has caused that tingling and I have no idea what could be the cause, which also makes it difficult to tell just how safe or unsafe it is.

Anyway, I always appreciate all the advice and input.