OT Purgatory: Lets talk Overpopulation.

[Ó Flannagáin]

Already we have things in place that take away privileges from people that have shown they can not handle them. We take away rights from people too that have done something wrong.

Couldn't we apply something like this to incompetent parents? You screw up and no more kids for you.

Don't they castrate some criminals as punishment? Aren't we already applying forced sterilization?

Ummm, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure castration is not a punishment in our judicial system.

Again, how do you decided who can and can't have kids? Leave criminals out of it, I think that's a seperate argument. They already lose a lot of their rights once they break the law. Please, tell me the cut-off line for ol' law abidin joe and jill.

 

[njnear76]

A woman (I use that term lightly) in my wife's playgroup is pregnant with her 6th child night now. She's only 24 and has a 6 month old at home too. They live in a 2-bedroom apartment. Everytime I see the kids they're dirty and hungry while the mother is a bloated fat-ass. Yes, I do believe some people should be sterilized. Those kids will never have a chance and will likely end up just like their mother.

Wow. It's surprising that the family can afford a 2 bedroom in NJ with that many mouths to feed.

It's not like any of us here are anti-kids, but I do believe that if you have kids, you owe it to society to raise them the right way. Otherwise you're a drain on our society and economy.

 

[Neomich]

Again, how do you decided who can and can't have kids? Leave criminals out of it, I think that's a seperate argument. They already lose a lot of their rights once they break the law. Please, tell me the cut-off line for ol' law abidin joe and jill.

First you'd have to have some sort of definition of who's a 'fit' parent and who isn't. I'm not a parent so I'm not going to attempt to define that. There are plenty of people who are parents that could though and I think they should. This would be a complex solution to set up and I'm not sure if it's even possible.

Obviously, anyone proven guilty of child-abuse (not smacking your kid as punishment or anything, actual abuse) or negligence shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Unfortunately, they still do. Maybe we could start there and at least make sure these abusers aren't allowed to repeat their abuse.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Wow. It's surprising that the family can afford a 2 bedroom in NJ with that many mouths to feed.

It's not like any of us here are anti-kids, but I do believe that if you have kids, you owe it to society to raise them the right way. Otherwise you're a drain on our society and economy.

Now, I can agree with that, but we still don't have a right to stop them from having kids. It sucks and those poor kids will be taken away from their parents if necessary, but their childhood is only so much of their life. They deserve every opportunity to work 3 jobs and go to college and lead an enjoyable life as everyone else. I know MANY people who had ****ty childhoods but are successful and happy now.

 

[Bobby_M]

Now, I can agree with that, but we still don't have a right to stop them from having kids. It sucks and those poor kids will be taken away from their parents if necessary, but their childhood is only so much of their life. They deserve every opportunity to work 3 jobs and go to college and lead an enjoyable life as everyone else. I know MANY people who had ****ty childhoods but are successful and happy now.

I think it comes down to letting go of reproduction as an innate right. It holds what I'd consider to be an archaic sanctity that it really doesn't really deserve. Humans have a lot of inate desires that we have come to control for the sake of order and civility (for the most part anyway) and reproduction should be one of them.

Is there any line you would draw? I get the impression that you have an uncompromising position that people should be able to have as many kids as they want period. What's the limit? Women can literally have 20+ babies in a lifetime. Should public assistance foot the bill?

I just think you have to weigh the pros and cons of any position and unwaving support of free procreation has a ton of cons.

The woman in my earlier post affords a two bedroom because that's what her section 8 assistance pays for. I work with a few guys who live at home with their parents because they can't afford a 2-bedroom apartment. How is that fair? It's not like this woman was on top of the world for years making good money and then had the rug pulled out from under her. She was poor, continues to be poor, and continues to make babies.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I think it comes down to letting go of reproduction as an innate right. It holds what I'd consider to be an archaic sanctity that it really doesn't really deserve. Humans have a lot of inate desires that we have come to control for the sake of order and civility (for the most part anyway) and reproduction should be one of them.

Is there any line you would draw? I get the impression that you have an uncompromising position that people should be able to have as many kids as they want period. What's the limit? Women can literally have 20+ babies in a lifetime. Should public assistance foot the bill?

I just think you have to weigh the pros and cons of any position and unwaving support of free procreation has a ton of cons.

The woman in my earlier post affords a two bedroom because that's what her section 8 assistance pays for. I work with a few guys who live at home with their parents because they can't afford a 2-bedroom apartment. How is that fair? It's not like this woman was on top of the world for years making good money and then had the rug pulled out from under her. She was poor, continues to be poor, and continues to make babies.

Again, life isn't fair in general, but our laws should strive to be. Yes, right now women can have as many babies as they want, but most stop after 1 or 2 and many women don't even have kids. It's a balance that is natural. We do not have the right to stop people from having children, ever. It's life, not a driver's license.

On a side note, it's not that hard to move out of your parents house. I did it, my family was poor, they didn't give me any money. You just ahve to grow up.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I hate to sound like an EAC, and I'm partly kidding when I say this, but there absolutley are people in this world who should not be permitted to procreate but I digress...

It is in fact the right of every CITIZEN of this country to have as many children as they choose. Being the EAC that I am I think that there should be some type of intelligence test administered to determine if someone if fit to be a parent but again - this should not and will not ever happen under our governmatic system.

I realize that this is skirting on the very suburbs of the OP, but one thing that should be done ASAP is the removal of all illegal immigrants in this country regardless of race, nationality, color or religion. There are far too many people who live in this country and abuse the welfare and government subsidised healthcare plans that are in place - people who should never be here in the first place.

Pass a citizenship test, learn to at least communicate semi-intelligently in the English language and show some respect for the freedoms that you have been given with your citizenship to this country by getting a job and trying to become a productive member of your community and society as a whole.

If you can't or won't, you get a free bus/plane ticket back to where ever it is that you came from. That would reduce the population of our country, anyway.

(Here Evan, here's your soapbox back)

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I hate to sound like an EAC, and I'm partly kidding when I say this, but there absolutley are people in this world who should not be permitted to procreate but I digress...

It is in fact the right of every CITIZEN of this country to have as many children as they choose. Being the EAC that I am I think that there should be some type of intelligence test administered to determine if someone if fit to be a parent but again - this should not and will not ever happen under our governmatic system.

I realize that this is skirting on the very suburbs of the OP, but one thing that should be done ASAP is the removal of all illegal immigrants in this country regardless of race, nationality, color or religion. There are far too many people who live in this country and abuse the welfare and government subsidised healthcare plans that are in place - people who should never be here in the first place.

Pass a citizenship test, learn to at least communicate semi-intelligently in the English language and show some respect for the freedoms that you have been given with your citizenship to this country by getting a job and trying to become a productive member of your community and society as a whole.

If you can't or won't, you get a free bus/plane ticket back to where ever it is that you came from. That would reduce the population of our country, anyway.

(Here Evan, here's your soapbox back)

Oh god, about to go off topic again, but come ON!!! Immigrants? Man, they are human just as much as we are, they just aren't lucky enough to be born in a great country. It's practically EVIL to not allow someone to share in our freedom. F*** that. Not to mention, the majority of the illegals in this country work harder than we do. You ever seen the apple fields in NC?

 

[the_bird]

Alright, this is getting REAL CLOSE to being out of hand.... let's take a deep breath before continuing down this path, m'kay?

 

[user 574]

Population explosion isn't here...

 

[Bobby_M]

You're right, let's open the borders and hand out viagra. If there's no benefit to being a citizen, I'd like to revoke my social security and stop paying taxes. I'll work hard too. I'm kidding but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I'm all for opening the borders with proper ID/passport before hand, but once you're in, you're in.

But..

You're right, let's open the borders and hand out viagra. If there's no benefit to being a citizen, I'd like to revoke my social security and stop paying taxes. I'll work hard too. I'm kidding but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

agreed

 

[ohiobrewtus]

Oh god, about to go off topic again, but come ON!!! Immigrants? Man, they are human just as much as we are, they just aren't lucky enough to be born in a great country. It's practically EVIL to not allow someone to share in our freedom. F*** that. Not to mention, the majority of the illegals in this country work harder than we do. You ever seen the apple fields in NC?

I never said that they weren't as human as we are. All I'd like to see is a mandatory pass on a citizenship test and a basic ability to communicate in English. IMO, if someone is not capable of or willing to do those two things, then they do not deserve to live in this country at all.

If it were a matter of simply sharing freedom I'd be all for it. At the risk of starting another debate I'll leave it at that.

 

[z987k]

You know what? I'm sick and freakin tired of people using the line, "The constitution didn't give us the freedom to _______". Anyone who says that, quite honestly, has NO idea how a constitutional republic works, and should be ashamed to even speak on the topic or even mention the constitution.

The Constitution is based on the principle of "negative rights", not "positive rights". "Positive rights" means that we are born with no rights, and the government grants us a laundry list of things that we are allowed to do, called "rights". This is NOT what the United States is or should be. The country is based on "negative rights", meaning, you are born with infinite rights and the constitution and our laws & codes lay out which ones government is allowed to restrict.

So, the Constitution/ BoR doesn't explicitly give me the right to beat off in the bathtub, but that doesn't mean that I should be arrested for doing so. The BoR lays out specific freedoms that government can not take away, but just because something isn't on that list doesn't mean I don't have the right to do it.

If you want to live in a country where you're only allowed to do the things that the government gives you permission to do, then move to Saudi Arabia. But stop abusing and misconstruing the principles of our republic.

/rant

Thank god you posted that, I was gonna flip. Constitution doesn't grant you the right... I can't form words of how disgusted I am.