OT Purgatory: Lets talk Overpopulation.

[Neomich]

This topic really comes back to other views I've expressed. Maybe something like a permit should be required to be a parent. That way, you have to show some sort of ability to raise a child responsibly. You gotta have a permit for just about anything you want to do as it is, why not require people to be accountable for bringing new people into this world?

I'm very supportive of individual rights and keeping the government out of everyone's life especially mine. But when other people's choices start negatively affecting my choices, something has to be done.

 

[njnear76]

Good lord. We just sold ganja to each other in the bathrooms :rockin:

Lots of drugs in my school too.

 

[WOP31]

No, I'm not kidding. I don't recall that the constitution granted anyone rights to procreate just because they could. Having kids just because you're physically capable of breeding is selfish.

If you're mature enough and responsible enough to raise a family, then by all means have at it. How many people are really mature and responsible enough to have children and raise them? Some are, some aren't. There may be room, but the resources are limited and most of those are not renewable.

I think that having children just so you can collect more welfare is selfish, I have seen many times over families that are collecting money from the government and doing absolutly nothing to better improve thier station in life because it easier to sit at home and pop out kids and collect a check then to actually go out and find a job.

If you want population controll try checking this out, specifically the "Policy Measures" and the "Problems with Policy" pages, seems to be working for them, maybe we can get all the people who belive in that to move there and ease some of the burden on the american public.


Cheers

 

[the_bird]

So what would you advocate for someone who gets pregnant without a "permit"?.......

 

[iamjonsharp]

This topic really comes back to other views I've expressed. Maybe something like a permit should be required to be a parent. That way, you have to show some sort of ability to raise a child responsibly. You gotta have a permit for just about anything you want to do as it is, why not require people to be accountable for bringing new people into this world?

I'm very supportive of individual rights and keeping the government out of everyone's life especially mine. But when other people's choices start negatively affecting my choices, something has to be done.

The thing to be done would be to stop providing for parents who make bad choices, not to restrict people from having kids.

 

[njnear76]

This topic really comes back to other views I've expressed. Maybe something like a permit should be required to be a parent. That way, you have to show some sort of ability to raise a child responsibly. You gotta have a permit for just about anything you want to do as it is, why not require people to be accountable for bringing new people into this world?

I'm very supportive of individual rights and keeping the government out of everyone's life especially mine. But when other people's choices start negatively affecting my choices, something has to be done.

Agreed. I don't know how you do it without being overly intrusive. I think free access to birth control coupled with sex education is the best route.

 

[the_bird]

Fact is, there is virtually no organic population growth in the U.S. Growth in the overall population rate here (and in Europe) mostly comes from immigration, which is a whole other hot-button topic I hope never gets discussed in these parts...

 

[Neomich]

So what would you advocate for someone who gets pregnant without a "permit"?.......

I don't know, I don't have all the answers. There may not even be a good answer. If people just took it upon themselves to be accountable for everything they do, this would solve itself.

Plus, is having a child a RIGHT or a PRIVILEDGE? I'm not really sure.....

 

[njnear76]

Fact is, there is virtually no organic population growth in the U.S. Growth in the overall population rate here (and in Europe) mostly comes from immigration, which is a whole other hot-button topic I hope never gets discussed in these parts...

I think the people of New York were ready to hang their governor over the immigrant driving license issue. Very touchy issue.

 

[the_bird]

I don't know, I don't have all the answers. There may not even be a good answer. If people just took it upon themselves to be accountable for everything they do, this would solve itself.

That would pretty much solve all of the world's problems!

 

[Evan!]

That would pretty much solve all of the world's problems!

No sh*t. We need an updated, less-hippy-utopian version of "Imagine".

Imagine all the people...responsible for their own actions...

Okay, so it doesn't have the same ring as "Living for today", but it makes a hell of a lot more sense.

 

[njnear76]

.Plus, is having a child a RIGHT or a PRIVILEDGE? I'm not really sure.....

Hmmmmmm... We do have permits for other things. You need a building permit to build on your property. You need a license to drive, marry, travel abroad, etc... People can argue that those things are just as intrusive.

 

[Neomich]

Hmmmmmm... We do have permits for other things. You need a building permit to build on your property. You need a license to drive, marry, travel abroad, etc... People can argue that those things are just as intrusive.

That's kind of the way I was thinking about this issue.... I didn't really mean to create such a controversial thread.

 

[WOP31]

Agreed. I don't know how you do it without being overly intrusive. I think free access to birth control coupled with sex education is the best route.

But where do you draw the line when handing out free birth control? At some point the responsibility has to fall back on the parents, look at what is going on in Maine right now: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21358971/

Not tryin got call you out just using your post as a reference, I agree we need better education for the younger generation, and i guess showing that "Miricle of Life" video in schools isn't working anymore. Maybe they could sit in on a live child birth, i know that would have detered me when i was younger.

I mean birth controll to 11 year olds with out parental consent, that is just wrong, a parent has to know what is happening in their child's life, if you don't know that your 11 YO is having sex you are not doing your job right.



Cheers

 

[njnear76]

That's kind of the way I was thinking about this issue.... I didn't really mean to create such a controversial thread.

Everything is controversial these days. I think as long as you are respectful with your opinions, people are pretty cool. I hate to think I pissed anybody off with what I said.

Issues and solutions aren't really black and white, but a shade of gray. There's a bit of truth in everyone's statements.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

This topic really comes back to other views I've expressed. Maybe something like a permit should be required to be a parent. That way, you have to show some sort of ability to raise a child responsibly. You gotta have a permit for just about anything you want to do as it is, why not require people to be accountable for bringing new people into this world?

I'm very supportive of individual rights and keeping the government out of everyone's life especially mine. But when other people's choices start negatively affecting my choices, something has to be done.

Yea, that would work. Just give out forced abortions when someone gets pregnant. That's not invading our rights at all.

 

[Neomich]

Yea, that would work. Just give out forced abortions when someone gets pregnant. That's not invading our rights at all.

No, no forced abortions. I don't want draconian laws like China or anything. But like with other things that require permits, if you get caught without one, you get fined. Pay out some $ to help offset the cost of education, healthcare, etc.... The children will benefit from improving these services.

I don't know how you would 'enforce' this but it's just an idea...

 

[njnear76]

But where do you draw the line when handing out free birth control? At some point the responsibility has to fall back on the parents, look at what is going on in Maine right now: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21358971/

Not tryin got call you out just using your post as a reference, I agree we need better education for the younger generation, and i guess showing that "Miricle of Life" video in schools isn't working anymore. Maybe they could sit in on a live child birth, i know that would have detered me when i was younger.

I mean birth controll to 11 year olds with out parental consent, that is just wrong, a parent has to know what is happening in their child's life, if you don't know that your 11 YO is having sex you are not doing your job right.
Cheers

Yeah. That scared me. Eleven is way too young for birth control and sex. Man... I was completely ignorant about sex at 11. I think that it would have messed me up.

When I was talking about free and available birth control, I was talking about people 18 and over having access to it. If you are 15-18, I guess it isn't as much of an issue to have it available. Although I would worry if the kid could emotionally handle a sex life (Depends on the kid.). Under 15 though is a big concern.

 

[El_Borracho]

You know what? I'm sick and freakin tired of people using the line, "The constitution didn't give us the freedom to _______". Anyone who says that, quite honestly, has NO idea how a constitutional republic works, and should be ashamed to even speak on the topic or even mention the constitution.

The Constitution is based on the principle of "negative rights", not "positive rights". "Positive rights" means that we are born with no rights, and the government grants us a laundry list of things that we are allowed to do, called "rights". This is NOT what the United States is or should be. The country is based on "negative rights", meaning, you are born with infinite rights and the constitution and our laws & codes lay out which ones government is allowed to restrict.

So, the Constitution/ BoR doesn't explicitly give me the right to beat off in the bathtub, but that doesn't mean that I should be arrested for doing so. The BoR lays out specific freedoms that government can not take away, but just because something isn't on that list doesn't mean I don't have the right to do it.

If you want to live in a country where you're only allowed to do the things that the government gives you permission to do, then move to Saudi Arabia. But stop abusing and misconstruing the principles of our republic.

/rant

Playa pimpin!! You're so on-point it's ridiculous!

My thoughts are...we need to advance more in the production of our foods and fuels. Plain and simple. Vertical Farming - wave of the future. Imagine a 15 story building the size of a NY city block producing food for a quarter of the united states population. The money spent on this war would have funded enough of these to provide FREE food to the WORLD. That is fruits, vegetables, poultry, fish, and beef. The fish **** feeds the plants, the plants feed the livestock. Solar panels power everything. http://verticalfarm.com/

You can not depend on your government for ****, plain and simple. They aren't there to serve you, they are there to protect you - and even then.....

I'm starting an Suburban Farming project. I want to build a system that produces fruits/veggies and fish for me. Some chickens in a coop, for eggs and poultry. Natural gas generator, and some solar panels. The idea would be to take my TOWNHOUSE off the GRID for 6months out of the year. I'd still go to the store for somethings but the bulk of my families nutritional needs would be met in my backyard. Eventually my fuel requirements also.

Once my truck gets old enough, I'm converting it to bio-diesel and running it on used vegetable oil. Fried donuts smell better than unburned diesel anyway.

Talking about rights is silly. The people telling you what you can and can't do are the same people who will enforce whatever they want on you regardless of your views, thoughts, or the constitution.

We have plenty of space, plenty of people to labor, plenty of technology to assist us. We we don't have is power over the capitalist monopoly held by lobbyist of big corporations. You can run, but you can't hide.

/a little crazy sometimes

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

No, no forced abortions. I don't want draconian laws like China or anything. But like with other things that require permits, if you get caught without one, you get fined. Pay out some $ to help offset the cost of education, healthcare, etc.... The children will benefit from improving these services.

I don't know how you would 'enforce' this but it's just an idea...

It wouldn't work, ever. And, come on, fining those who are already poor? Almost as bad as forced abortions.

and, honestly, IMO, it's not even a remotely good idea.

 

[El_Borracho]

and about the kids and birth control..

if you ain't talking to your kids about sex at 11 you're letting MTV do the talking for you. you think they haven't a clue?? listen to the music lately, listen to them talk, look at how they dress.. they are CLUELESS about the danger, but damned if they don't know how to get off. don't turn your cheek, cause they will find a way to learn - and this subject is a horrible one to learn through trial and error. It's hard I know...I have a 7 year old daughter, and a 15 year old sister. I live in Miami, FL...it's a pretty horny city.

 

[WOP31]

Yeah. That scared me. Eleven is way too young for birth control and sex. Man... I was completely ignorant about sex at 11. I think that it would have messed me up.

When I was talking about free and available birth control, I was talking about people 18 and over having access to it. If you are 15-18, I guess it isn't as much of an issue to have it available. Although I would worry if the kid could emotionally handle a sex life (Depends on the kid.). Under 15 though is a big concern.

I agree with free birth control as well,, i am just shocked that the school is being alowed to give it out without haveing ot notify the parents. I am sorry if i piss anyone of with this statement, wait, no I'm not, an 11 year old doesn't have the same right to privacy when still living their parents house. If the kid wants/needs birth control I as a parent had better damn well know about it.

Cheers

 

[wild]

I say chastity belts 'til they're 31! By then they can afford the permit. :rockin:

 

[njnear76]

I say chastity belts 'til they're 31! By then they can afford the permit. :rockin:

Yikes! A population below 30 with no sex would be lethal.

 

[wild]

Consider it an alternative source of energy.

 

[Bobby_M]

If you use the arguement that unlimited procreation is a natural born right, you have to use that same argument across the board for any other choice that impacts society. The pro-lifers absolutely pick and choose here. IMHO, any polititian that stands on a pro-life AND tax reduction platform is by definition a liar and hypocrite. Pro-life is a religious arguement, plain and simple. The problem is, it's ALWAYS the folks who are least able to provide for their offspring who have the most. (see the movie Idiocracy for a eerily plausible future).

I think having more kids than you can afford to support is a moral crime akin to stealing. You know for a fact that it will take money out of other people's pockets and you do it anyway and the justification? Who can tell me how many kids to pop out, it's my gawd given right. No. It's not. It's child abuse.

A woman (I use that term lightly) in my wife's playgroup is pregnant with her 6th child night now. She's only 24 and has a 6 month old at home too. They live in a 2-bedroom apartment. Everytime I see the kids they're dirty and hungry while the mother is a bloated fat-ass. Yes, I do believe some people should be sterilized. Those kids will never have a chance and will likely end up just like their mother.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree with free birth control as well,, i am just shocked that the school is being alowed to give it out without haveing ot notify the parents. I am sorry if i piss anyone of with this statement, wait, no I'm not, an 11 year old doesn't have the same right to privacy when still living their parents house. If the kid wants/needs birth control I as a parent had better damn well know about it.

Cheers

Why? Because if receiving the birth control requires their parents to know about it, they won't do it. They'll have sex anyway, leading to pregnancy. As a father of a girl, the dilemma is very real to me. However, the lesser of two evils is safety first, heartbreak second. Of course, you try to educate your kids the best you can so they don't make bad decisions but bad decisions are part of growing up.

 

[the_bird]

Why? Because if receiving the birth control requires their parents to know about it, they won't do it. They'll have sex anyway, leading to pregnancy. As a father of a girl, the dilemma is very real to me. However, the lesser of two evils is safety first, heartbreak second. Of course, you try to educate your kids the best you can so they don't make bad decisions but bad decisions are part of growing up.

Yeah, never to early to start thinking about this.

Better for her to make a bad decision, have sex too early, but be smart and not get pregnant, that for her to make that same bad decision (which I know she'll make) and get pregnant/drop out of school, etc.

I kinda view it the way I view teaching her about alcohol; it's there, it's natural, it's a thing of beauty, but it's something that should be reserved for when you're old enough to accept the responsibility that comes with it. Don't hide it, don't make it shameful - but treat it with some respect.

(says the guy who looks at way too much porn... )

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

If you use the arguement that unlimited procreation is a natural born right, you have to use that same argument across the board for any other choice that impacts society. The pro-lifers absolutely pick and choose here. IMHO, any polititian that stands on a pro-life AND tax reduction platform is by definition a liar and hypocrite. Pro-life is a religious arguement, plain and simple. The problem is, it's ALWAYS the folks who are least able to provide for their offspring who have the most. (see the movie Idiocracy for a eerily plausible future).

I think having more kids than you can afford to support is a moral crime akin to stealing. You know for a fact that it will take money out of other people's pockets and you do it anyway and the justification? Who can tell me how many kids to pop out, it's my gawd given right. No. It's not. It's child abuse.

A woman (I use that term lightly) in my wife's playgroup is pregnant with her 6th child night now. She's only 24 and has a 6 month old at home too. They live in a 2-bedroom apartment. Everytime I see the kids they're dirty and hungry while the mother is a bloated fat-ass. Yes, I do believe some people should be sterilized. Those kids will never have a chance and will likely end up just like their mother.

Abortion has a lot more peope against it than just the religious, I'm pro life and not very religious. I will abstain from arguing why I'm against it right now.

So what's your solution for telling people they can't have children? How do YOU decide who deserves to procreate? I'm sorry, but that's a nazi viewpoint to say YOU know who should be sterilized.

EDIT: Took out the personal attack, sorry about that, got a little heated.

 

[Neomich]

So what's your solution for telling people they can't have children? How do YOU decide who deserves to procreate? .

Already we have things in place that take away privileges from people that have shown they can not handle them. We take away rights from people too that have done something wrong.

Couldn't we apply something like this to incompetent parents? You screw up and no more kids for you.

Don't they castrate some criminals as punishment? Aren't we already applying forced sterilization?