Evan!
Well-Known Member
the_bird said:
No sh*t. We need an updated, less-hippy-utopian version of "Imagine".
Okay, so it doesn't have the same ring as "Living for today", but it makes a hell of a lot more sense.
OT Purgatory: Lets talk Overpopulation.
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No sh*t. We need an updated, less-hippy-utopian version of "Imagine".
Okay, so it doesn't have the same ring as "Living for today", but it makes a hell of a lot more sense.
njnear76
Well-Known Member
Hmmmmmm... We do have permits for other things. You need a building permit to build on your property. You need a license to drive, marry, travel abroad, etc... People can argue that those things are just as intrusive.Neomich said:
Neomich
Well-Known Member
njnear76 said:
That's kind of the way I was thinking about this issue.... I didn't really mean to create such a controversial thread.
WOP31
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njnear76 said:
But where do you draw the line when handing out free birth control? At some point the responsibility has to fall back on the parents, look at what is going on in Maine right now: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21358971/
Not tryin got call you out just using your post as a reference, I agree we need better education for the younger generation, and i guess showing that "Miricle of Life" video in schools isn't working anymore. Maybe they could sit in on a live child birth, i know that would have detered me when i was younger.
I mean birth controll to 11 year olds with out parental consent, that is just wrong, a parent has to know what is happening in their child's life, if you don't know that your 11 YO is having sex you are not doing your job right.
Cheers
njnear76
Well-Known Member
Everything is controversial these days. I think as long as you are respectful with your opinions, people are pretty cool. I hate to think I pissed anybody off with what I said.Neomich said:
Issues and solutions aren't really black and white, but a shade of gray. There's a bit of truth in everyone's statements.
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à Flannagáin
Well-Known Member
Neomich said:
Yea, that would work. Just give out forced abortions when someone gets pregnant. That's not invading our rights at all.
Neomich
Well-Known Member
Ó Flannagáin said:
No, no forced abortions. I don't want draconian laws like China or anything. But like with other things that require permits, if you get caught without one, you get fined. Pay out some $ to help offset the cost of education, healthcare, etc.... The children will benefit from improving these services.
I don't know how you would 'enforce' this but it's just an idea...
njnear76
Well-Known Member
Yeah. That scared me. Eleven is way too young for birth control and sex. Man... I was completely ignorant about sex at 11. I think that it would have messed me up.wop31 said:
When I was talking about free and available birth control, I was talking about people 18 and over having access to it. If you are 15-18, I guess it isn't as much of an issue to have it available. Although I would worry if the kid could emotionally handle a sex life (Depends on the kid.). Under 15 though is a big concern.
El_Borracho
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Evan! said:
Playa pimpin!! You're so on-point it's ridiculous!
My thoughts are...we need to advance more in the production of our foods and fuels. Plain and simple. Vertical Farming - wave of the future. Imagine a 15 story building the size of a NY city block producing food for a quarter of the united states population. The money spent on this war would have funded enough of these to provide FREE food to the WORLD. That is fruits, vegetables, poultry, fish, and beef. The fish **** feeds the plants, the plants feed the livestock. Solar panels power everything. http://verticalfarm.com/
You can not depend on your government for ****, plain and simple. They aren't there to serve you, they are there to protect you - and even then.....
I'm starting an Suburban Farming project. I want to build a system that produces fruits/veggies and fish for me. Some chickens in a coop, for eggs and poultry. Natural gas generator, and some solar panels. The idea would be to take my TOWNHOUSE off the GRID for 6months out of the year. I'd still go to the store for somethings but the bulk of my families nutritional needs would be met in my backyard. Eventually my fuel requirements also.
Once my truck gets old enough, I'm converting it to bio-diesel and running it on used vegetable oil. Fried donuts smell better than unburned diesel anyway.
Talking about rights is silly. The people telling you what you can and can't do are the same people who will enforce whatever they want on you regardless of your views, thoughts, or the constitution.
We have plenty of space, plenty of people to labor, plenty of technology to assist us. We we don't have is power over the capitalist monopoly held by lobbyist of big corporations. You can run, but you can't hide.
/a little crazy sometimes
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à Flannagáin
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Neomich said:
It wouldn't work, ever. And, come on, fining those who are already poor? Almost as bad as forced abortions.
and, honestly, IMO, it's not even a remotely good idea.
El_Borracho
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and about the kids and birth control..
if you ain't talking to your kids about sex at 11 you're letting MTV do the talking for you. you think they haven't a clue?? listen to the music lately, listen to them talk, look at how they dress.. they are CLUELESS about the danger, but damned if they don't know how to get off. don't turn your cheek, cause they will find a way to learn - and this subject is a horrible one to learn through trial and error. It's hard I know...I have a 7 year old daughter, and a 15 year old sister. I live in Miami, FL...it's a pretty horny city.
if you ain't talking to your kids about sex at 11 you're letting MTV do the talking for you. you think they haven't a clue?? listen to the music lately, listen to them talk, look at how they dress.. they are CLUELESS about the danger, but damned if they don't know how to get off. don't turn your cheek, cause they will find a way to learn - and this subject is a horrible one to learn through trial and error. It's hard I know...I have a 7 year old daughter, and a 15 year old sister. I live in Miami, FL...it's a pretty horny city.
WOP31
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njnear76 said:
I agree with free birth control as well,, i am just shocked that the school is being alowed to give it out without haveing ot notify the parents. I am sorry if i piss anyone of with this statement, wait, no I'm not, an 11 year old doesn't have the same right to privacy when still living their parents house. If the kid wants/needs birth control I as a parent had better damn well know about it.
Cheers
wild
Well-Known Member
I say chastity belts 'til they're 31! By then they can afford the permit. :rockin:
njnear76
Well-Known Member
Yikes! A population below 30 with no sex would be lethal.wild said:
wild
Well-Known Member
Consider it an alternative source of energy.
If you use the arguement that unlimited procreation is a natural born right, you have to use that same argument across the board for any other choice that impacts society. The pro-lifers absolutely pick and choose here. IMHO, any polititian that stands on a pro-life AND tax reduction platform is by definition a liar and hypocrite. Pro-life is a religious arguement, plain and simple. The problem is, it's ALWAYS the folks who are least able to provide for their offspring who have the most. (see the movie Idiocracy for a eerily plausible future).
I think having more kids than you can afford to support is a moral crime akin to stealing. You know for a fact that it will take money out of other people's pockets and you do it anyway and the justification? Who can tell me how many kids to pop out, it's my gawd given right. No. It's not. It's child abuse.
A woman (I use that term lightly) in my wife's playgroup is pregnant with her 6th child night now. She's only 24 and has a 6 month old at home too. They live in a 2-bedroom apartment. Everytime I see the kids they're dirty and hungry while the mother is a bloated fat-ass. Yes, I do believe some people should be sterilized. Those kids will never have a chance and will likely end up just like their mother.
I think having more kids than you can afford to support is a moral crime akin to stealing. You know for a fact that it will take money out of other people's pockets and you do it anyway and the justification? Who can tell me how many kids to pop out, it's my gawd given right. No. It's not. It's child abuse.
A woman (I use that term lightly) in my wife's playgroup is pregnant with her 6th child night now. She's only 24 and has a 6 month old at home too. They live in a 2-bedroom apartment. Everytime I see the kids they're dirty and hungry while the mother is a bloated fat-ass. Yes, I do believe some people should be sterilized. Those kids will never have a chance and will likely end up just like their mother.
wop31 said:
Why? Because if receiving the birth control requires their parents to know about it, they won't do it. They'll have sex anyway, leading to pregnancy. As a father of a girl, the dilemma is very real to me. However, the lesser of two evils is safety first, heartbreak second. Of course, you try to educate your kids the best you can so they don't make bad decisions but bad decisions are part of growing up.
Bobby_M said:
Yeah, never to early to start thinking about this.
Better for her to make a bad decision, have sex too early, but be smart and not get pregnant, that for her to make that same bad decision (which I know she'll make) and get pregnant/drop out of school, etc.
I kinda view it the way I view teaching her about alcohol; it's there, it's natural, it's a thing of beauty, but it's something that should be reserved for when you're old enough to accept the responsibility that comes with it. Don't hide it, don't make it shameful - but treat it with some respect.
(says the guy who looks at way too much porn...
)
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à Flannagáin
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Abortion has a lot more peope against it than just the religious, I'm pro life and not very religious. I will abstain from arguing why I'm against it right now.Bobby_M said:
So what's your solution for telling people they can't have children? How do YOU decide who deserves to procreate? I'm sorry, but that's a nazi viewpoint to say YOU know who should be sterilized.
EDIT: Took out the personal attack, sorry about that, got a little heated.
Neomich
Well-Known Member
Ó Flannagáin said:
Already we have things in place that take away privileges from people that have shown they can not handle them. We take away rights from people too that have done something wrong.
Couldn't we apply something like this to incompetent parents? You screw up and no more kids for you.
Don't they castrate some criminals as punishment? Aren't we already applying forced sterilization?
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à Flannagáin
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Neomich said:
Ummm, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure castration is not a punishment in our judicial system.
Again, how do you decided who can and can't have kids? Leave criminals out of it, I think that's a seperate argument. They already lose a lot of their rights once they break the law. Please, tell me the cut-off line for ol' law abidin joe and jill.
njnear76
Well-Known Member
Wow. It's surprising that the family can afford a 2 bedroom in NJ with that many mouths to feed.Bobby_M said:
It's not like any of us here are anti-kids, but I do believe that if you have kids, you owe it to society to raise them the right way. Otherwise you're a drain on our society and economy.
Neomich
Well-Known Member
Ó Flannagáin said:
First you'd have to have some sort of definition of who's a 'fit' parent and who isn't. I'm not a parent so I'm not going to attempt to define that. There are plenty of people who are parents that could though and I think they should. This would be a complex solution to set up and I'm not sure if it's even possible.
Obviously, anyone proven guilty of child-abuse (not smacking your kid as punishment or anything, actual abuse) or negligence shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Unfortunately, they still do. Maybe we could start there and at least make sure these abusers aren't allowed to repeat their abuse.
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à Flannagáin
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njnear76 said:
Now, I can agree with that, but we still don't have a right to stop them from having kids. It sucks and those poor kids will be taken away from their parents if necessary, but their childhood is only so much of their life. They deserve every opportunity to work 3 jobs and go to college and lead an enjoyable life as everyone else. I know MANY people who had ****ty childhoods but are successful and happy now.
Ó Flannagáin said:
I think it comes down to letting go of reproduction as an innate right. It holds what I'd consider to be an archaic sanctity that it really doesn't really deserve. Humans have a lot of inate desires that we have come to control for the sake of order and civility (for the most part anyway) and reproduction should be one of them.
Is there any line you would draw? I get the impression that you have an uncompromising position that people should be able to have as many kids as they want period. What's the limit? Women can literally have 20+ babies in a lifetime. Should public assistance foot the bill?
I just think you have to weigh the pros and cons of any position and unwaving support of free procreation has a ton of cons.
The woman in my earlier post affords a two bedroom because that's what her section 8 assistance pays for. I work with a few guys who live at home with their parents because they can't afford a 2-bedroom apartment. How is that fair? It's not like this woman was on top of the world for years making good money and then had the rug pulled out from under her. She was poor, continues to be poor, and continues to make babies.
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à Flannagáin
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Bobby_M said:
Again, life isn't fair in general, but our laws should strive to be. Yes, right now women can have as many babies as they want, but most stop after 1 or 2 and many women don't even have kids. It's a balance that is natural. We do not have the right to stop people from having children, ever. It's life, not a driver's license.
On a side note, it's not that hard to move out of your parents house. I did it, my family was poor, they didn't give me any money. You just ahve to grow up.
ohiobrewtus
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I hate to sound like an EAC, and I'm partly kidding when I say this, but there absolutley are people in this world who should not be permitted to procreate but I digress...
It is in fact the right of every CITIZEN of this country to have as many children as they choose. Being the EAC that I am I think that there should be some type of intelligence test administered to determine if someone if fit to be a parent but again - this should not and will not ever happen under our governmatic system.
I realize that this is skirting on the very suburbs of the OP, but one thing that should be done ASAP is the removal of all illegal immigrants in this country regardless of race, nationality, color or religion. There are far too many people who live in this country and abuse the welfare and government subsidised healthcare plans that are in place - people who should never be here in the first place.
Pass a citizenship test, learn to at least communicate semi-intelligently in the English language and show some respect for the freedoms that you have been given with your citizenship to this country by getting a job and trying to become a productive member of your community and society as a whole.
If you can't or won't, you get a free bus/plane ticket back to where ever it is that you came from. That would reduce the population of our country, anyway.
(Here Evan, here's your soapbox back)
It is in fact the right of every CITIZEN of this country to have as many children as they choose. Being the EAC that I am I think that there should be some type of intelligence test administered to determine if someone if fit to be a parent but again - this should not and will not ever happen under our governmatic system.
I realize that this is skirting on the very suburbs of the OP, but one thing that should be done ASAP is the removal of all illegal immigrants in this country regardless of race, nationality, color or religion. There are far too many people who live in this country and abuse the welfare and government subsidised healthcare plans that are in place - people who should never be here in the first place.
Pass a citizenship test, learn to at least communicate semi-intelligently in the English language and show some respect for the freedoms that you have been given with your citizenship to this country by getting a job and trying to become a productive member of your community and society as a whole.
If you can't or won't, you get a free bus/plane ticket back to where ever it is that you came from. That would reduce the population of our country, anyway.
(Here Evan, here's your soapbox back)
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à Flannagáin
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ohiobrewtus said:
Oh god, about to go off topic again, but come ON!!! Immigrants? Man, they are human just as much as we are, they just aren't lucky enough to be born in a great country. It's practically EVIL to not allow someone to share in our freedom. F*** that. Not to mention, the majority of the illegals in this country work harder than we do. You ever seen the apple fields in NC?
Alright, this is getting REAL CLOSE to being out of hand.... let's take a deep breath before continuing down this path, m'kay?
You're right, let's open the borders and hand out viagra. If there's no benefit to being a citizen, I'd like to revoke my social security and stop paying taxes. I'll work hard too. I'm kidding but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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à Flannagáin
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I'm all for opening the borders with proper ID/passport before hand, but once you're in, you're in.
But..
agreed
But..
Bobby_M said:
agreed
ohiobrewtus
Well-Known Member
Ó Flannagáin said:
I never said that they weren't as human as we are. All I'd like to see is a mandatory pass on a citizenship test and a basic ability to communicate in English. IMO, if someone is not capable of or willing to do those two things, then they do not deserve to live in this country at all.
If it were a matter of simply sharing freedom I'd be all for it. At the risk of starting another debate I'll leave it at that.
