Original gravity... how much sugar is too much for yeast?

[spafmagic]

Hello... first time posting here. Gonna say off the bat, I love sweet wines, so the question is less "how much will make it too sweet?" and more so, "will Lalvin 71B ferment in high gravity musts?"
I just got done harvesting honey from my bees, and used it to make a few batches of must with Cherry, and Concord Grape juice, and Pineapple/Coconut mix. I'm thinking my honey has a high sugar content, as the batches came out as such:
Cherry - 1.175
Concord grape - 1.180
Pineapple/Coconut at 1.166.

This is opposed to a apple juice mead I'm making with local blueberry honey that came to 1.142
my usual method, just using water or tea in a must with honey bought from my local bee supply store comes to 1.126 using 1 pint honey, and 2 pints water.

I don't want to waste any must if I can help it, but if I have to water it down, I must do as I must... lol.

**edit**
I just realized I posted in a beer forum... sorry... I saw the word "beginner" and jumped in. Too bad I can't delete my own thread and remake it elsewhere.

 

[IslandLizard]

Welcome to HBT!
I moved your thread to the Mead Forum, that's the proper and best way. Easy peasy!

If you misplaced a post or thread and want it moved or deleted, just bring it to our attention by clicking on the [Report] button, found on the bottom of every post.

Sorry, I'm leaving suggestions for your meads to our experts who make these delicious drinks.
Sounds yummy!

 

[Seamonkey84]

Not all yeast can handle high starting gravity. The highest I’ve gone is a bit over 1.150, I know wyeast 1388 and 71B can handle that and a bit more, just not sure how much. I highly recommend looking into TOSNA for nutrient additions and calculations. You’ll have to help the yeast along so it won’t be too stressed and produce a lot of off flavors and aromas.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi spafmagic - and welcome. I doubt very much that your honey has significantly higher sugar content than other honey. I think you may simply be using far more honey to a gallon of water than most other mead makers consider will make a balanced mead (by balanced I mean the level of alcohol to acidity to sweetness to flavor and tannin level). For most wines (and meads) the ABV that keeps everything in balance tends to be about 12-14% and that is about 2.5 -3 lbs of honey dissolved in water to make 1 US gallon. When you mix that honey with fruit juice (as in cyser, or pyment, for example) then you still want to aim for that ABV and so you may need to reduce the amount of honey/gallon you use given the sugar content of the fruit.
But you say that you prefer a sweet wine. OK, then perhaps you can stretch the ABV a little higher but if you are a novice wine maker attempting to make a good wine around 18% ABV just because the yeast can tolerate that amount of alcohol (and you would normally attempt this by step feeding the yeast otherwise you can seriously damage their cells by demanding that they work in a too- high sugar concentrated liquid). To use a metaphor I like: just because you have bought a rope with a breaking strain of 2000 pounds does not mean that you are ready to climb the Matterhorn if you have never climbed a hill more difficult than one in your local city park.

 

[spafmagic]

Hi spafmagic - and welcome. I doubt very much that your honey has significantly higher sugar content than other honey. I think you may simply be using far more honey to a gallon of water than most other mead makers consider will make a balanced mead (by balanced I mean the level of alcohol to acidity to sweetness to flavor and tannin level). For most wines (and meads) the ABV that keeps everything in balance tends to be about 12-14% and that is about 2.5 -3 lbs of honey dissolved in water to make 1 US gallon. When you mix that honey with fruit juice (as in cyser, or pyment, for example) then you still want to aim for that ABV and so you may need to reduce the amount of honey/gallon you use given the sugar content of the fruit.
But you say that you prefer a sweet wine. OK, then perhaps you can stretch the ABV a little higher but if you are a novice wine maker attempting to make a good wine around 18% ABV just because the yeast can tolerate that amount of alcohol (and you would normally attempt this by step feeding the yeast otherwise you can seriously damage their cells by demanding that they work in a too- high sugar concentrated liquid). To use a metaphor I like: just because you have bought a rope with a breaking strain of 2000 pounds does not mean that you are ready to climb the Matterhorn if you have never climbed a hill more difficult than one in your local city park.

While I appreciate all that you've said and will take it to heart, my primary concern at this point, since the must is made and waiting for my next step, is simply;
Can the yeast ferment in such high sugar gravity? Or do I have to water it down?
I know 71b has a tolerance of 14%... but if the sugar is too high and can't make it to that, then I'll do what is necessary

 

[bernardsmith]

my primary concern at this point, since the must is made and waiting for my next step, is simply;
Can the yeast ferment in such high sugar gravity? Or do I have to water it down?

A gravity of 1.127 is high. It's potentially about 17% ABV. That is stressful for the yeast but is very likely possible. You want to make sure that a) you have aerated the must (the sugar/ water solution) and you have provided the yeast with a good load of nutrients (Fermaid O, for example, or Fermaid K with DAP).

That said, if this were me and I had another half pint of honey, I would dilute the batch I have with 1 pint of water and let the yeast do their thing and then add the half pint of honey as the yeast were completing the fermentation. That would tend to reduce the stress on the yeast and stressed yeast are very karmic: you stress the yeast and they return that favor and stress the winemaker. But you may be fine. Good luck.

 

[videojunkie1208]

I've made several meads with gravities around 1.160 that fermented out just fine (I usually use EC-1118 for these batches - and usually wind up around 18% ABV). The key here is good nutrition. Stepped nutrition (TONSA) has radically changed my mead making.

As far as your batches go, you could add a little water or juice to them to pull the gravity down a bit (If you need to pull some of your must to make room for the extra water, I would freeze / reserve it, and add it back in towards the end of fermentation, perhaps in secondary to add back additional flavor). With good nutrition, your primary should take about 4-6 weeks. Watch your SG and when you get down to somewhere around 1.020 rack it off the bulk lees.

Taste it frequently, and when you have the right taste, you can try to stop the fermentation by cold crashing/ sulfating. but that's not an exact science, and tricky. The alternative, and why you reserved some of the must in the step above, is to add back the reserved must after cold crashing/ sulfating for back sweetening.

 

[Seamonkey84]

The starting gravity can shock the yeast if it’s too high, but 71b can handle high SG. With proper nutrients and degassing, the yeast can and will ferment past the advertised abv tolerance. But it will only go so far and you’ll be left with residual sugars to have a sweet product. But like I said before, I don’t know how high is too high to start.
The other problem is it can be unpredictable where it will actually stop, and you may end up with a much sweeter product than you wanted.

 

[videojunkie1208]

@Seamonkey84 or much more alcohol than you wanted...

 

[spafmagic]

I decided to go a "middle rout." if you could call it that. First, to paint a picture of what I did, I took bottles with a 3.16 pint capacity, and did 1 pint honey to 2 pints juice. Same as I would do with honey and water. Perhaps the juices had more sugar than I thought?
So...
Rather than reduce the separate cherry, and grape musts, I combined them into a 1 gallon jug and added enough water to bring the gravity reading from 1.180 to 1.142. I figured... "why not?" Concord grape, and cherry go well together anyway and the virgin flavor is still really strong.
The pineapple coconut must... I took a risk and decided to add yeast as is.

 

[Seamonkey84]

@Seamonkey84 or much more alcohol than you wanted...

Well I follow the BOMM protocol using wyeast 1388. It’s been very consistent at 16-17%abv at the end, exceeding the advertised tolerance of 14%. I don’t chemical stabilize and want a sweet product, so I plan for that at the beginning. I front load most of the honey with the fruit in the beginning, let it ferment almost dry, then top off with the rest of the honey when I pull the fruit. I tend to use a lot of fruit and need the sweetness to balance the acid and abv. Yes I basically just make fruit bomb desert meads, though none taste overly sweet even with a FG of 1.030

 

[videojunkie1208]

one of our house favorites is a cranberry mead that I make. 25# of honey in a 7 gallon batch (6.5 in secondary). 5 gallons of Ocean Spray Cranberry and 2 gallons of Honey. I usually use EC-1118 with it, and the OG for the batch is usually around 1.160. following TONSA 2.0, primary fermentation takes about 6 weeks to get to 1.020 (ish), at which point I rack the batch to a 6.5 gallon glass carboy, and put it my aging room (utility room) to bulk age, finish fermenting and clarify. Within 2-3 months, the batch has clarified to the point you can read through the carboy (and a beautiful red color) and I either Keg or Bottle. It is very drinkable at this point, but a few extra months in the bottle or keg refine it even more.

The acid in the cranberry hides the 18+% ABV of the mead, and you literally cannot tell the alcohol content of it. The cranberry flavor also 'sweetens' it despite it being bone dry at a FG of .995.

IT's one of those drinks that you can sit around drinking and suddenly discover you can't walk anymore...

 

[BudNini]

one of our house favorites is a cranberry mead that I make. 25# of honey in a 7 gallon batch (6.5 in secondary). 5 gallons of Ocean Spray Cranberry and 2 gallons of Honey. I usually use EC-1118 with it, and the OG for the batch is usually around 1.160. following TONSA 2.0, primary fermentation takes about 6 weeks to get to 1.020 (ish), at which point I rack the batch to a 6.5 gallon glass carboy, and put it my aging room (utility room) to bulk age, finish fermenting and clarify. Within 2-3 months, the batch has clarified to the point you can read through the carboy (and a beautiful red color) and I either Keg or Bottle. It is very drinkable at this point, but a few extra months in the bottle or keg refine it even more.

The acid in the cranberry hides the 18+% ABV of the mead, and you literally cannot tell the alcohol content of it. The cranberry flavor also 'sweetens' it despite it being bone dry at a FG of .995.

IT's one of those drinks that you can sit around drinking and suddenly discover you can't walk anymore...

Now that sounds good